Hosni Mubarak Faces the Judge; Egypt Faces a New Future

Mubarak and other former senior officials face murder charges

Mubarak and other former senior officials face murder charges © AP GraphicsBank

The legal proceedings against former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak opened without drama today.

But for the family members of those killed in the Jan. 25 uprising, the sight of the former president in a criminal court docket was deeply emotional.

Today’s proceedings were straightforward, with Mubarak entering a “not guilty” plea and lawyers from both sides presenting statements; the trial won’t reconvene until Aug. 15.

But during the session, there was Mubarak, lying in a special bed inside the cage for Egyptian criminal defendants.  While he was lying in the bed, many observers indicated his health looked pretty strong, belying pre-trial reports coming from his camp that he was near death.

To American observers, seeing any defendant in a cage seems medieval, but it’s standard procedure in Egyptian criminal trials.  Several years ago it was noted sociologist Saad Ibrahim who stood in a cage while brought up on charges related to his pro-democracy work.

Now Mubarak is getting the same treatment.  And to the family members of the estimated 800 people who were killed during the Jan. 25 uprising, that sight was an important step toward earning a new era of justice, something that had been denied the Egyptians for three decades under the Mubarak regime.

Democracy Now posted this photo outside the courtroom of a mother of a young man killed in the uprising.  The woman told reporter Shari Kouddous that she was “overjoyed” to see justice happening.  Kouddous in turn called it a defining moment in the revolution and in Egypt’s history.”

Justice for Egyptian victims is more than a slogan.  Amnesty International believes it’s an essential step toward establishment of a new Egypt based on human rights and rejecting a past where security forces acted with impunity.

“But if the trial is going to be a meaningful break with Egypt’s record of impunity, it must be both fair and transparent – justice demands no less,” said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International’s Director for the Middle East and North Africa.  “Not only must the trial be fair but it must be seen to be fair, not least by the families of those who died during the protests.”

The man who once was “king” is now facing the consequences of his actions.  How the trial plays out over the next weeks will be a important test of just what Egypt’s future might look like.

AIUSA welcomes a lively and courteous discussion that follow our Community Guidelines. Comments are not pre-screened before they post but AIUSA reserves the right to remove any comments violating our guidelines.

68 thoughts on “Hosni Mubarak Faces the Judge; Egypt Faces a New Future

  1. The only minor difference from before is that Egypt is now ruled by a different set of dictators, before it was the Mubarak clan, now its the military junta.

    This so-called trial is about nothing more or less than the new dictators putting on a show trial in a kangaroo court of the previous dictator with the verdict already known in advance, all to satisfy the public's cravings for revenge.

    And Egypt under the the military junta is still to this day maintaining its racist apartheid wall around Gaza and its illegal blockade of humanitarian aid and commercial goods import and export to Gaza.

    So much for the supposed "new era".

  2. The only minor difference from before is that Egypt is now ruled by a different set of dictators, before it was the Mubarak clan, now its the military junta.

    This so-called trial is about nothing more or less than the new dictators putting on a show trial in a kangaroo court of the previous dictator with the verdict already known in advance, all to satisfy the public’s cravings for revenge.

    And Egypt under the the military junta is still to this day maintaining its racist apartheid wall around Gaza and its illegal blockade of humanitarian aid and commercial goods import and export to Gaza.

    So much for the supposed “new era”.

  3. This is about Egypt … & her longed for Destiny.

    This the Egyptian People's Will for Justice …. defeating Army, Burueacracy, the inertia of History.

    This is Accountability … due for Decades.

    The Revolution's first Institutional Victory.

    The first judicial Auditing of a nation's Tyrant in our Times.

    The Egyptian People … not passion's slave but her Arbiter.

    They, only they made this dream of Justice come true.

  4. If one labors only for a system, one can never See History when She's being Born.

    To See Her in that Moment one goes beyond all systems, to the point where the People are breaking out of them.

  5. This is about Egypt … & her longed for Destiny.

    This the Egyptian People’s Will for Justice …. defeating Army, Burueacracy, the inertia of History.

    This is Accountability … due for Decades.

    The Revolution’s first Institutional Victory.

    The first judicial Auditing of a nation’s Tyrant in our Times.

    The Egyptian People … not passion’s slave but her Arbiter.

    They, only they made this dream of Justice come true.

  6. If one labors only for a system, one can never See History when She’s being Born.

    To See Her in that Moment one goes beyond all systems, to the point where the People are breaking out of them.

  7. Judonimh,

    1- correction: the head of the Security Council of Armed Forces is – for a fact – a part of Mubarak's clan. It will not last for long, the people understood the role of the military in this … "play". The people won't rest, they won't let them rule for long.

    As for Mubarak's trial we all hope it's not the cinema of justice, "some" of the judges are corrupt. "The public's cravings" might not be satisfied as we witnessed in previous trials.

    His trial is for sure symbolic, as we see one of the Middle East's dictators behind the bars, but no sentence will ever pay for what he – the captain – and his sailors have done.
    Apart the people who died during the revolution and the corruption, Mubarak is responsible of 30 years of misery, hunger and unemployment. Many people have died ill (no efficient and functional health care system) and poor while he – The President – was playing tennis.

    2- correction: The Rafah border crossing is opened since June, check for yourself: http://www.almasryalyoum.com/node/466964

    You shall not speak about an "apartheid" as the situation isn't comparable, palestinians have been living among us since the fifties.

    On another hand the egyptians aren't the ones who are keeping Palestinians imprisoned in their own lands (closure of airports, shooting of foreign Aid Ships, etc.).

  8. Judonimh,

    1- correction: the head of the Security Council of Armed Forces is – for a fact – a part of Mubarak's clan. It will not last for long, the people understood the role of the military in this … "play". The people won't rest, they won't let them rule for long.

    As for Mubarak's trial we all hope it's not the cinema of justice, "some" of the judges are corrupt. "The public's cravings" might not be satisfied as we witnessed in previous trials.

    His trial is for sure symbolic, as we see one of the Middle East's dictators behind the bars, but no sentence will ever pay for what he – the captain – and his sailors have done.
    Apart the people who died during the revolution and the corruption, Mubarak is responsible of 30 years of misery, hunger and unemployment. Many people have died ill (no efficient and functional health care system) and poor while he – The President – was playing tennis.

    2- correction: The Rafah border crossing is opened since June, check for yourself: http://www.almasryalyoum.com/node/466964

    You shall not speak about an "apartheid" as the situation isn't comparable, palestinians have been living among us since the fifties.

    On another hand the egyptians aren't the ones who are keeping Palestinians imprisoned in their own lands (closure of airports, shooting of foreign Aid Ships, etc.).

  9. Judonimh,

    1- correction: the head of the Security Council of Armed Forces is – for a fact – a part of Mubarak's clan. It will not last for long, the people understood the role of the military in this … "play". The people won't rest, they won't let them rule for long.

    As for Mubarak's trial we all hope it's not the cinema of justice, "some" of the judges are corrupt. "The public's cravings" might not be satisfied as we witnessed in previous trials.

    His trial is for sure symbolic, as we see one of the Middle East's dictators behind the bars, but no sentence will ever pay for what he – the captain – and his sailors have done.
    Apart the people who died during the revolution and the corruption, Mubarak is responsible of 30 years of misery, hunger and unemployment. Many people have died ill (no efficient and functional health care system) and poor while he – The President – was playing tennis.

    2- correction: The Rafah border crossing is opened since June, check for yourself: http://www.almasryalyoum.com/node/466964

    You shall not speak about an "apartheid" as the situation isn't comparable, palestinians have been living among us since the fifties.

    On another hand the egyptians aren't the ones who are keeping Palestinians imprisoned in their own lands (closure of airports, shooting of foreign Aid Ships, etc.).

  10. Shaden :

    sorry but you need a correction to your correction:

    The concrete and steel barb wired toped 10 meter high wall between Gaza and Egypt, patrolled by no-questions-asked shoot-to-kill Egyptian soldiers is a "***RACIST*** ***APARTHEID*** ***WALL***".

    Yes you do now let a few hundred women children and old men out of Gaza each week but hundreds of thousands of Gazans are still even today refused permission to enter Egypt even students just wanting to pass through Egypt to get to colleges in foreign countries or thousands needing urgent medical treatment who you happily leave trapped in Gaza to die. And you are still blockading even cancer medication and baby formula from entering Gaza from Egypt and of course all commercial import/export is blockaded.

    This means you, Shaden, and the rest of the Egyptian people, every one of you, are still today illegally blockading Gaza.

    Note that I emphasize that the Egyptian ***PEOPLE***, not Mubarak and not the Egyptian military junta, are responsible for imposing this cruel evil ongoing blockade on Gaza,

    Why?

    Because from January till today, in all the protests at Tahrir Square, all the statements, all the face-book pages, all the slogans, not a single banner has ever been raised, not a single chant from the people ever was heard demanding that the EGYPTIAN RACIST APARTHEID wall with Gaza be torn down and the people of Gaza be given their universal human right to freedom of movement into and out of Egypt.

    Not once, not a sign, not a word, just silence, silence, silence, on Gaza's suffering from the Egyptian PEOPLE.

    The Egyptian People are the power in Egypt now. The mob's baying and howling for blood and revenge, blood and revenge, just as was seen before after a thousand other revolutions in a thousand other places and a thousand other times in human history, the PEOPLE have shown they even the power to force the military junta to hold this phony Stalinist style show trial followed predictably by the execution of their close friend Mubarak and his family.

    So don't try to lie and say the Egyptian PEOPLE are somehow powerless to relive Gaza's suffering and throw open the gates of Rafah and give them freedom from your racist apartheid blockade.

    This excuse is just a not even funny joke.

    The Egyptian PEOPLE are the power now and so the continued racist apartheid blockade of Gaza by Egypt till today is the fault and guilt of the Egyptian PEOPLE.

  11. Judonimh,

    1- correction: the head of the Security Council of Armed Forces is – for a fact – a part of Mubarak’s clan. It will not last for long, the people understood the role of the military in this … “play”. The people won’t rest, they won’t let them rule for long.

    As for Mubarak’s trial we all hope it’s not the cinema of justice, “some” of the judges are corrupt. “The public’s cravings” might not be satisfied as we witnessed in previous trials.

    His trial is for sure symbolic, as we see one of the Middle East’s dictators behind the bars, but no sentence will ever pay for what he – the captain – and his sailors have done.
    Apart the people who died during the revolution and the corruption, Mubarak is responsible of 30 years of misery, hunger and unemployment. Many people have died ill (no efficient and functional health care system) and poor while he – The President – was playing tennis.

    2- correction: The Rafah border crossing is opened since June, check for yourself: http://www.almasryalyoum.com/node/466964

    You shall not speak about an “apartheid” as the situation isn’t comparable, palestinians have been living among us since the fifties.

    On another hand the egyptians aren’t the ones who are keeping Palestinians imprisoned in their own lands (closure of airports, shooting of foreign Aid Ships, etc.).

  12. Shaden :

    sorry but you need a correction to your correction:

    The concrete and steel barb wired toped 10 meter high wall between Gaza and Egypt, patrolled by no-questions-asked shoot-to-kill Egyptian soldiers is a “***RACIST*** ***APARTHEID*** ***WALL***”.

    Yes you do now let a few hundred women children and old men out of Gaza each week but hundreds of thousands of Gazans are still even today refused permission to enter Egypt even students just wanting to pass through Egypt to get to colleges in foreign countries or thousands needing urgent medical treatment who you happily leave trapped in Gaza to die. And you are still blockading even cancer medication and baby formula from entering Gaza from Egypt and of course all commercial import/export is blockaded.

    This means you, Shaden, and the rest of the Egyptian people, every one of you, are still today illegally blockading Gaza.

    Note that I emphasize that the Egyptian ***PEOPLE***, not Mubarak and not the Egyptian military junta, are responsible for imposing this cruel evil ongoing blockade on Gaza,

    Why?

    Because from January till today, in all the protests at Tahrir Square, all the statements, all the face-book pages, all the slogans, not a single banner has ever been raised, not a single chant from the people ever was heard demanding that the EGYPTIAN RACIST APARTHEID wall with Gaza be torn down and the people of Gaza be given their universal human right to freedom of movement into and out of Egypt.

    Not once, not a sign, not a word, just silence, silence, silence, on Gaza’s suffering from the Egyptian PEOPLE.

    The Egyptian People are the power in Egypt now. The mob’s baying and howling for blood and revenge, blood and revenge, just as was seen before after a thousand other revolutions in a thousand other places and a thousand other times in human history, the PEOPLE have shown they even the power to force the military junta to hold this phony Stalinist style show trial followed predictably by the execution of their close friend Mubarak and his family.

    So don’t try to lie and say the Egyptian PEOPLE are somehow powerless to relive Gaza’s suffering and throw open the gates of Rafah and give them freedom from your racist apartheid blockade.

    This excuse is just a not even funny joke.

    The Egyptian PEOPLE are the power now and so the continued racist apartheid blockade of Gaza by Egypt till today is the fault and guilt of the Egyptian PEOPLE.

  13. Dear Judonimh,

    You sound like an American movie.

    You are painting an image to grab people’s pity. You jump to unjustified conclusion. I don’t know what your nationality is, or where you live, but have you seen yourself the banners that were raised? Or have you – ONLY – seen the ones broadcasted to the world via the media?
    I have.

    The “wall” issue is a more complex one, and I won’t proceed here with a geopolitical analysis not because I can’t, but because many books discuss it better.

    Different peoples fight for their own freedom, for their own rights, and it is completely legitimate for Egyptians to focus on their “cause”. Although I can assure you that if it wasn’t for the protesters the Rafah border wouldn’t have been opened, in Tahrir there are relevant and irrelevant banners to the Revolution. On another hand there are MILLIONS of Palestinians in my country, unlike other countries who wouldn’t even give them a refugee visa (oh wait they don’t even have an airport to fly, and can’t leave the territory without the Israeli government’s permission. whose fault is that?). Western countries refuse students and helpless ill people – cancer included – every MINUTE (different working hours in different time zone) to step on their soil.

    You also say: “This means you (…) are still today illegally blocking Gaza”. Here I shall remind you that we are not living in a democracy, that the people don’t have a say and that this revolution is only the start (we have a long way to go, and we WILL get there). We did not elect the person who took the decision to block this wall (reminder: I am not discussing whether it should be closed or opened). So it is technically absurd for you to use the word “legal” or “illegal”.
    Also, I love how optimistic you are and think things change as you say when people raise banners but even if more than 50% of the banners were about the Rafah Border/Palestine, it wouldn’t have changed everything.

    The massive demonstrations after the Seattle round didn’t stop the World Trade Organization from proceeding with another round in Doha.

    “Silence, silence, silence, on Gaza’s suffering from the Egyptian people” –> you c;early don’t know what suffering is, here is a list of what Palestinians suffer of:

    -The systematic demolition of Palestinian buildings and homes.
    -The forbidden access to vital and basic services (water).
    -Policies preventing Palestinian economic subsistence and forcing them to depend on Israel.
    -The forbidden access to secondary services that make life sustainable in any country: natural resources, education, etc.
    - The ongoing “war” that stops the clock, leaving people in refugee camps on their own lands.

    Palestinians started suffering since the 1950’s but it is only since 1967 that they were literally expelled from their homes.

    You say: “so don’t try to lie and say that Egyptian PEOPLE are somehow powerless to relive Gaza’s suffering”. I can recommend and give you references of Egyptian Activists who are devoted to the Palestinian cause. Their effort is acknowledgeable, but they are somehow inefficient because it takes more than a little group of activists to change a country’s policy (Israel).

    Please, do some research and go in depth in the subject, because pictures do speak for them selves but they don’t always show the bigger image.

  14. Shaden, you wrote:

    (oh wait they .. can’t leave the territory without the Israeli government’s permission. whose fault is that?).

    This is of course a lie. Israel has nothing what so ever to do with preventing anyone from leaving or entering Gaza from Egypt. Blame yourselves not Israel. This border is entirely controlled by Hamas and Egypt. In order to cross to Egypt Gazans have to first, assuming they are politically acceptable to Hamas or they can forget it right from the get go, obtain an expensive rarely granted exit permits from Hamas and then be granted an even more expensive and even more rarely granted entrance visa from Egypt.
    Stop blaming Israel for your own sins, please.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "The systematic demolition of Palestinian buildings and homes."

    In fact, the West Bank has been undergoing a massive Palestinian building boom the last 3 or 4 years with world leading economic growth rates of nearly 10% according to the World Bank even with the world recession elsewhere else, with tens of thousands of commercial construction projects and residences for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under construction, including entirely brand new Palestinian cities being built from scratch, totaling multiple billions of dollars in Palestinian construction. Al Jezeera reported last week Gaza to is also under going a building boom :

    See this in this video from Al Jezeera English;
    http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/201

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "-The forbidden access to vital and basic services (water)."

    Again this is a totally false lie: According to the UN, up to the year 1995, only 80% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, but by today in 2011 this number has grown to 92% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, according to the recent Amnesty International report, even though in this same time period 1995 to 2011, the Palestinian population increased by nearly 1 million people. And by the way, 92% of the population with running water is by the way higher than most other Arab countries such as Syria and Jordan manage to provide for their own populations according to the World Health Organization.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "-Policies preventing Palestinian economic subsistence and forcing them to depend on Israel. The forbidden access to secondary services that make life sustainable in any country: natural resources, education, etc.'

    Do you even realize how incredibly absurd and ridiculous it is for an Egyptian of all people to claim Palestinians cannot access education? Palestinian literacy is well over %95 including Palestinian women.

    Less than %40 of Egyptian women are literate and only about %80 of male Egyptians can even read and write. Can I suggest you worry about the fact that your country Egypt has one of the lowest levels of female literacy on planet Earth before you complain about the Palestinian education system which is light years better than the Egyptian education system?

    And the only policy in place deliberately preventing Palestinian economic subsistence that I am aware of is the one Egypt imposes on the Gazan economy preventing any export of Gazan commercial goods over the Egyptian border to the port of El Arish so the Gazan economy can earn money of exports for itself and stop dependence on foreign aid.

    ——————————————————————————————————————
    Here, as opposed to your lies and false propaganda are actual facts about Palestine:

    The World Bank Economic Monitoring Report on The West Bank and Gaza

    "Education and health in the West Bank and Gaza (WB&G) are highly developed, comparing favorably to the performance of countries in the region as well as globally. For example, enrollment in secondary education is roughly 20 percentage points higher than the rate in the average middle income country, and levels of malnutrition are 7 times lower."

    Real economic growth in WB&G is estimated to have reached 9.3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2010. The Gaza economy appears to have rebounded sharply with the opening of the crossings to more goods and initial estimates suggest that real growth was nearly 15 percent of GDP in 2010,
    In the West Bank, growth reached about 7.6 percent of GDP. The fastest growing sectors in WB&G included agriculture, and hotels and restaurants, which grew by 22.8 and 46.3 percent, respectively. Construction grew by an
    impressive 35 percent, and public administration and defense continued to expand, growing by 6.4 percent in 2010. "

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    Since you told me to "do some research and go in depth in the subject", maybe I can tell you to practice what you preach?

  15. Dear Judonimh,

    You sound like an American movie.

    You are painting an image to grab people’s pity. You jump to unjustified conclusion. I don’t know what your nationality is, or where you live, but have you seen yourself the banners that were raised? Or have you – ONLY – seen the ones broadcasted to the world via the media?
    I have.

    The “wall” issue is a more complex one, and I won’t proceed here with a geopolitical analysis not because I can’t, but because many books discuss it better.

    Different peoples fight for their own freedom, for their own rights, and it is completely legitimate for Egyptians to focus on their “cause”. Although I can assure you that if it wasn’t for the protesters the Rafah border wouldn’t have been opened, in Tahrir there are relevant and irrelevant banners to the Revolution. On another hand there are MILLIONS of Palestinians in my country, unlike other countries who wouldn’t even give them a refugee visa (oh wait they don’t even have an airport to fly, and can’t leave the territory without the Israeli government’s permission. whose fault is that?). Western countries refuse students and helpless ill people – cancer included – every MINUTE (different working hours in different time zone) to step on their soil.

    You also say: “This means you (…) are still today illegally blocking Gaza”. Here I shall remind you that we are not living in a democracy, that the people don’t have a say and that this revolution is only the start (we have a long way to go, and we WILL get there). We did not elect the person who took the decision to block this wall (reminder: I am not discussing whether it should be closed or opened). So it is technically absurd for you to use the word “legal” or “illegal”.
    Also, I love how optimistic you are and think things change as you say when people raise banners but even if more than 50% of the banners were about the Rafah Border/Palestine, it wouldn’t have changed everything.

    The massive demonstrations after the Seattle round didn’t stop the World Trade Organization from proceeding with another round in Doha.

    “Silence, silence, silence, on Gaza’s suffering from the Egyptian people” –> you c;early don’t know what suffering is, here is a list of what Palestinians suffer of:

    -The systematic demolition of Palestinian buildings and homes.
    -The forbidden access to vital and basic services (water).
    -Policies preventing Palestinian economic subsistence and forcing them to depend on Israel.
    -The forbidden access to secondary services that make life sustainable in any country: natural resources, education, etc.
    - The ongoing “war” that stops the clock, leaving people in refugee camps on their own lands.

    Palestinians started suffering since the 1950’s but it is only since 1967 that they were literally expelled from their homes.

    You say: “so don’t try to lie and say that Egyptian PEOPLE are somehow powerless to relive Gaza’s suffering”. I can recommend and give you references of Egyptian Activists who are devoted to the Palestinian cause. Their effort is acknowledgeable, but they are somehow inefficient because it takes more than a little group of activists to change a country’s policy (Israel).

    Please, do some research and go in depth in the subject, because pictures do speak for them selves but they don’t always show the bigger image.

  16. Shaden, you wrote:

    (oh wait they .. can’t leave the territory without the Israeli government’s permission. whose fault is that?).

    This is of course a lie. Israel has nothing what so ever to do with preventing anyone from leaving or entering Gaza from Egypt. Blame yourselves not Israel. This border is entirely controlled by Hamas and Egypt. In order to cross to Egypt Gazans have to first, assuming they are politically acceptable to Hamas or they can forget it right from the get go, obtain an expensive rarely granted exit permits from Hamas and then be granted an even more expensive and even more rarely granted entrance visa from Egypt.
    Stop blaming Israel for your own sins, please.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "The systematic demolition of Palestinian buildings and homes."

    In fact, the West Bank has been undergoing a massive Palestinian building boom the last 3 or 4 years with world leading economic growth rates of nearly 10% according to the World Bank even with the world recession elsewhere else, with tens of thousands of commercial construction projects and residences for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under construction, including entirely brand new Palestinian cities being built from scratch, totaling multiple billions of dollars in Palestinian construction. Al Jezeera reported last week Gaza to is also under going a building boom :

    See this in this video from Al Jezeera English;
    http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/201

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "-The forbidden access to vital and basic services (water)."

    Again this is a totally false lie: According to the UN, up to the year 1995, only 80% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, but by today in 2011 this number has grown to 92% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, according to the recent Amnesty International report, even though in this same time period 1995 to 2011, the Palestinian population increased by nearly 1 million people. And by the way, 92% of the population with running water is by the way higher than most other Arab countries such as Syria and Jordan manage to provide for their own populations according to the World Health Organization.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "-Policies preventing Palestinian economic subsistence and forcing them to depend on Israel. The forbidden access to secondary services that make life sustainable in any country: natural resources, education, etc.'

    Do you even realize how incredibly absurd and ridiculous it is for an Egyptian of all people to claim Palestinians cannot access education? Palestinian literacy is well over %95 including Palestinian women.

    Less than %40 of Egyptian women are literate and only about %80 of male Egyptians can even read and write. Can I suggest you worry about the fact that your country Egypt has one of the lowest levels of female literacy on planet Earth before you complain about the Palestinian education system which is light years better than the Egyptian education system?

    And the only policy in place deliberately preventing Palestinian economic subsistence that I am aware of is the one Egypt imposes on the Gazan economy preventing any export of Gazan commercial goods over the Egyptian border to the port of El Arish so the Gazan economy can earn money of exports for itself and stop dependence on foreign aid.

    ——————————————————————————————————————
    Here, as opposed to your lies and false propaganda are actual facts about Palestine:

    The World Bank Economic Monitoring Report on The West Bank and Gaza

    "Education and health in the West Bank and Gaza (WB&G) are highly developed, comparing favorably to the performance of countries in the region as well as globally. For example, enrollment in secondary education is roughly 20 percentage points higher than the rate in the average middle income country, and levels of malnutrition are 7 times lower."

    Real economic growth in WB&G is estimated to have reached 9.3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2010. The Gaza economy appears to have rebounded sharply with the opening of the crossings to more goods and initial estimates suggest that real growth was nearly 15 percent of GDP in 2010,
    In the West Bank, growth reached about 7.6 percent of GDP. The fastest growing sectors in WB&G included agriculture, and hotels and restaurants, which grew by 22.8 and 46.3 percent, respectively. Construction grew by an
    impressive 35 percent, and public administration and defense continued to expand, growing by 6.4 percent in 2010. "

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    Since you told me to "do some research and go in depth in the subject", maybe I can tell you to practice what you preach?

  17. Shaden, you wrote:

    (oh wait they .. can’t leave the territory without the Israeli government’s permission. whose fault is that?).

    This is of course a lie. Israel has nothing what so ever to do with preventing anyone from leaving or entering Gaza from Egypt. Blame yourselves not Israel. This border is entirely controlled by Hamas and Egypt. In order to cross to Egypt Gazans have to first, assuming they are politically acceptable to Hamas or they can forget it right from the get go, obtain an expensive rarely granted exit permits from Hamas and then be granted an even more expensive and even more rarely granted entrance visa from Egypt.
    Stop blaming Israel for your own sins, please.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "The systematic demolition of Palestinian buildings and homes."

    In fact, the West Bank has been undergoing a massive Palestinian building boom the last 3 or 4 years with world leading economic growth rates of nearly 10% according to the World Bank even with the world recession elsewhere else, with tens of thousands of commercial construction projects and residences for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under construction, including entirely brand new Palestinian cities being built from scratch, totaling multiple billions of dollars in Palestinian construction. Al Jezeera reported last week Gaza to is also under going a building boom :

    See this in this video from Al Jezeera English;
    http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/201

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "-The forbidden access to vital and basic services (water)."

    Again this is a totally false lie: According to the UN, up to the year 1995, only 80% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, but by today in 2011 this number has grown to 92% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, according to the recent Amnesty International report, even though in this same time period 1995 to 2011, the Palestinian population increased by nearly 1 million people. And by the way, 92% of the population with running water is by the way higher than most other Arab countries such as Syria and Jordan manage to provide for their own populations according to the World Health Organization.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    "-Policies preventing Palestinian economic subsistence and forcing them to depend on Israel. The forbidden access to secondary services that make life sustainable in any country: natural resources, education, etc.'

    Do you even realize how incredibly absurd and ridiculous it is for an Egyptian of all people to claim Palestinians cannot access education? Palestinian literacy is well over %95 including Palestinian women.

    Less than %40 of Egyptian women are literate and only about %80 of male Egyptians can even read and write. Can I suggest you worry about the fact that your country Egypt has one of the lowest levels of female literacy on planet Earth before you complain about the Palestinian education system which is light years better than the Egyptian education system?

    And the only policy in place deliberately preventing Palestinian economic subsistence that I am aware of is the one Egypt imposes on the Gazan economy preventing any export of Gazan commercial goods over the Egyptian border to the port of El Arish so the Gazan economy can earn money of exports for itself and stop dependence on foreign aid.

    ——————————————————————————————————————
    Here, as opposed to your lies and false propaganda are actual facts about Palestine:

    The World Bank Economic Monitoring Report on The West Bank and Gaza

    "Education and health in the West Bank and Gaza (WB&G) are highly developed, comparing favorably to the performance of countries in the region as well as globally. For example, enrollment in secondary education is roughly 20 percentage points higher than the rate in the average middle income country, and levels of malnutrition are 7 times lower."

    Real economic growth in WB&G is estimated to have reached 9.3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2010. The Gaza economy appears to have rebounded sharply with the opening of the crossings to more goods and initial estimates suggest that real growth was nearly 15 percent of GDP in 2010,
    In the West Bank, growth reached about 7.6 percent of GDP. The fastest growing sectors in WB&G included agriculture, and hotels and restaurants, which grew by 22.8 and 46.3 percent, respectively. Construction grew by an
    impressive 35 percent, and public administration and defense continued to expand, growing by 6.4 percent in 2010. "

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    Since you told me to "do some research and go in depth in the subject", maybe I can tell you to practice what you preach?

  18. Shaden, you wrote:

    (oh wait they .. can’t leave the territory without the Israeli government’s permission. whose fault is that?).

    This is of course a lie. Israel has nothing what so ever to do with preventing anyone from leaving or entering Gaza from Egypt. Blame yourselves not Israel. This border is entirely controlled by Hamas and Egypt. In order to cross to Egypt Gazans have to first, assuming they are politically acceptable to Hamas or they can forget it right from the get go, obtain an expensive rarely granted exit permits from Hamas and then be granted an even more expensive and even more rarely granted entrance visa from Egypt.
    Stop blaming Israel for your own sins, please.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    “The systematic demolition of Palestinian buildings and homes.”

    In fact, the West Bank has been undergoing a massive Palestinian building boom the last 3 or 4 years with world leading economic growth rates of nearly 10% according to the World Bank even with the world recession elsewhere else, with tens of thousands of commercial construction projects and residences for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under construction, including entirely brand new Palestinian cities being built from scratch, totaling multiple billions of dollars in Palestinian construction. Al Jezeera reported last week Gaza to is also under going a building boom :

    See this in this video from Al Jezeera English;

    http://english.aljazeera.net/video/middleeast/2011/07/201171619436625473.html

    Shaden, you wrote:

    “-The forbidden access to vital and basic services (water).”

    Again this is a totally false lie: According to the UN, up to the year 1995, only 80% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, but by today in 2011 this number has grown to 92% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water, according to the recent Amnesty International report, even though in this same time period 1995 to 2011, the Palestinian population increased by nearly 1 million people. And by the way, 92% of the population with running water is by the way higher than most other Arab countries such as Syria and Jordan manage to provide for their own populations according to the World Health Organization.

    Shaden, you wrote:

    “-Policies preventing Palestinian economic subsistence and forcing them to depend on Israel. The forbidden access to secondary services that make life sustainable in any country: natural resources, education, etc.’

    Do you even realize how incredibly absurd and ridiculous it is for an Egyptian of all people to claim Palestinians cannot access education? Palestinian literacy is well over %95 including Palestinian women.

    Less than %40 of Egyptian women are literate and only about %80 of male Egyptians can even read and write. Can I suggest you worry about the fact that your country Egypt has one of the lowest levels of female literacy on planet Earth before you complain about the Palestinian education system which is light years better than the Egyptian education system?

    And the only policy in place deliberately preventing Palestinian economic subsistence that I am aware of is the one Egypt imposes on the Gazan economy preventing any export of Gazan commercial goods over the Egyptian border to the port of El Arish so the Gazan economy can earn money of exports for itself and stop dependence on foreign aid.

    ——————————————————————————————————————
    Here, as opposed to your lies and false propaganda are actual facts about Palestine:

    The World Bank Economic Monitoring Report on The West Bank and Gaza

    “Education and health in the West Bank and Gaza (WB&G) are highly developed, comparing favorably to the performance of countries in the region as well as globally. For example, enrollment in secondary education is roughly 20 percentage points higher than the rate in the average middle income country, and levels of malnutrition are 7 times lower.”

    Real economic growth in WB&G is estimated to have reached 9.3 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2010. The Gaza economy appears to have rebounded sharply with the opening of the crossings to more goods and initial estimates suggest that real growth was nearly 15 percent of GDP in 2010,
    In the West Bank, growth reached about 7.6 percent of GDP. The fastest growing sectors in WB&G included agriculture, and hotels and restaurants, which grew by 22.8 and 46.3 percent, respectively. Construction grew by an
    impressive 35 percent, and public administration and defense continued to expand, growing by 6.4 percent in 2010. ”

    ————————————————————————————————————-

    Since you told me to “do some research and go in depth in the subject”, maybe I can tell you to practice what you preach?

  19. You are contradicting yourself.

    You paint a wonderful world, according to you almost everyone has access to education “Palestinian literacy is well over 95%”, where they have access to clean water “in 2011 (…) 92% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water” and above all “ (…) tens of thousands of commercial construction projects and residences for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under construction”.

    If everything is so wonderful, then why are you even mentioning the Rafah crossing?
    Palestinians are – de facto – suffering.

    I am not discussing whether the crossing should be opened or closed. Because we would have to mention the innocent, ill people who pay the price of those who encourage the weapon trafficking (and of course Hamas). The same goes for all countries, be realistic. It is not a wonderful world.

    The point I am trying to make is that our common borders are not the only access point to Palestinians and the closure of the borders does not justify ALL the misery witnessed – as you plead (reminder: the crossing point is opened today).

    The whole world witnessed the flotilla incident of 31 May 2010, where 5 activists were killed. Palestinians literally suffer of the maritime blockade of Gaza’s coastline by Israeli Navy, limiting humanitarian aid along with any Export/import activity.

    Some numbers and figures:
    -The Gaza coastal line: 42 km long.
    -The Gaza strip border with Israel: 51Km.
    -The Gaza strip border with Egypt: 11km.

    Can you do the math and realize by yourself that Palestinians aren’t suffocating only because of the 11km we share?

    More numbers (you seem to like them):
    -There are over 50 refugee camps in the Gaza strip, the west bank, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. In 2005 Palestine refugees are over 4 millions.
    -The estimated population in the Gaza strip is around 1.7 million in 2011, added up to the 1.5 in the West Bank; give us a total of 3.2 million.

    My point: you say “the Palestinian literacy is well over 95%”, so which Palestinians are we speaking about? The Palestinian Diaspora or the refugees still “living” or “surviving” on Palestinian lands?

    Also you speak about economic growth in the West Bank, let me remind you that there are about 350, 000 Israeli settlers living there and around 200 000 living in the Israeli east Jerusalem. You say: “in the west Bank, growth reached about 7.5 percent of GDP” are you speaking about area A, B or C?

    Even if you speak about the Palestinian “part”, let me remind you that 8% of growth is insignificant knowing that the GDP of the Gaza strip and the West Bank declined 36.1% between 1992 and 1996.

    Lastly, I would like to mention what we commonly call the transparency of statistics, so beware of the numbers and figures – the same goes for me and the information I share. (Greece reported 3% of deficit spending from their GDP, later on it was proved that it was up to 5%)

    I am not trying to prove that I am right by replying every time (there is no “right” or “wrong” but only different points of view), I am only inviting you to consider the matter from a different angle.

    Thank you for the information you shared,
    Kind regards.

    P.S: Al jazeera isn’t always a reliable source (irrelevant to your link).

  20. You are contradicting yourself.

    You paint a wonderful world, according to you almost everyone has access to education “Palestinian literacy is well over 95%”, where they have access to clean water “in 2011 (…) 92% of Palestinians were connected to clean running water” and above all “ (…) tens of thousands of commercial construction projects and residences for hundreds of thousands of Palestinians under construction”.

    If everything is so wonderful, then why are you even mentioning the Rafah crossing?
    Palestinians are – de facto – suffering.

    I am not discussing whether the crossing should be opened or closed. Because we would have to mention the innocent, ill people who pay the price of those who encourage the weapon trafficking (and of course Hamas). The same goes for all countries, be realistic. It is not a wonderful world.

    The point I am trying to make is that our common borders are not the only access point to Palestinians and the closure of the borders does not justify ALL the misery witnessed – as you plead (reminder: the crossing point is opened today).

    The whole world witnessed the flotilla incident of 31 May 2010, where 5 activists were killed. Palestinians literally suffer of the maritime blockade of Gaza’s coastline by Israeli Navy, limiting humanitarian aid along with any Export/import activity.

    Some numbers and figures:
    -The Gaza coastal line: 42 km long.
    -The Gaza strip border with Israel: 51Km.
    -The Gaza strip border with Egypt: 11km.

    Can you do the math and realize by yourself that Palestinians aren’t suffocating only because of the 11km we share?

    More numbers (you seem to like them):
    -There are over 50 refugee camps in the Gaza strip, the west bank, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. In 2005 Palestine refugees are over 4 millions.
    -The estimated population in the Gaza strip is around 1.7 million in 2011, added up to the 1.5 in the West Bank; give us a total of 3.2 million.

    My point: you say “the Palestinian literacy is well over 95%”, so which Palestinians are we speaking about? The Palestinian Diaspora or the refugees still “living” or “surviving” on Palestinian lands?

    Also you speak about economic growth in the West Bank, let me remind you that there are about 350, 000 Israeli settlers living there and around 200 000 living in the Israeli east Jerusalem. You say: “in the west Bank, growth reached about 7.5 percent of GDP” are you speaking about area A, B or C?

    Even if you speak about the Palestinian “part”, let me remind you that 8% of growth is insignificant knowing that the GDP of the Gaza strip and the West Bank declined 36.1% between 1992 and 1996.

    Lastly, I would like to mention what we commonly call the transparency of statistics, so beware of the numbers and figures – the same goes for me and the information I share. (Greece reported 3% of deficit spending from their GDP, later on it was proved that it was up to 5%)

    I am not trying to prove that I am right by replying every time (there is no “right” or “wrong” but only different points of view), I am only inviting you to consider the matter from a different angle.

    Thank you for the information you shared,
    Kind regards.

    P.S: Al jazeera isn’t always a reliable source (irrelevant to your link).

  21. Shaden:

    It does not matter if the border between Gaza and Egypt is 1 kilometer, or 11 kilometers, or 111 kilometers long. What matters is that 100% of the Gaza Egypt border is blockaded to commercial goods import/export through Egypt,

    What Gaza actually needs to get itself of its reliance on foreign aid, to revive its economy, create jobs and eliminate poverty is the ability to import and export without Israeli interference across sovereign Egyptian territory, not these farcical aquatic flotillas.

    I am sure the people of Egypt could if they wanted to, if they cared enough to, easily pressure the military junta to force the Rafah border open to commercial goods movement in and out of Gaza. If the people can force the junta to hold a trial of the old dictator and co., surely the people can achieve this little thing as well?

    Honestly Shaden, would it really truly be all that dramatic a development for Egypt to simply allow a few hundred commercial shipping trucks to cross back and forth across the Gaza border each day?

    And by the way, slightly off topic I know, but how can the millions and millions of Arabs you claim to be "Palestinian refugees" be in actuality refugees? I just do not understand how this could possibly be true. After all, I thought that the United Nations High Commission on Refugees does not recognize any following generations of refugees as refugees. The UNHCR rules clearly state refugee status stops at first generation to actually leave a place and all subsequent generations born in the country of refuge are not to be considered refugees once they reach adulthood.

    I mean after all, it is not as though there are currently today in 2011 hundreds of millions of people going around in India and Pakistan for just one example all claiming to still be refugees just because their great grandparents were driven from their homes following partition of India in 1947? Everyone would simply laugh at them if they claimed that. And neither do the millions of Jews and their descendents who were driven from Arab lands including Egypt following 1948 try to claim refugee status. That would be absurd, would it not?

  22. Shaden:

    It does not matter if the border between Gaza and Egypt is 1 kilometer, or 11 kilometers, or 111 kilometers long. What matters is that 100% of the Gaza Egypt border is blockaded to commercial goods import/export through Egypt,

    What Gaza actually needs to get itself of its reliance on foreign aid, to revive its economy, create jobs and eliminate poverty is the ability to import and export without Israeli interference across sovereign Egyptian territory, not these farcical aquatic flotillas.

    I am sure the people of Egypt could if they wanted to, if they cared enough to, easily pressure the military junta to force the Rafah border open to commercial goods movement in and out of Gaza. If the people can force the junta to hold a trial of the old dictator and co., surely the people can achieve this little thing as well?

    Honestly Shaden, would it really truly be all that dramatic a development for Egypt to simply allow a few hundred commercial shipping trucks to cross back and forth across the Gaza border each day?

    And by the way, slightly off topic I know, but how can the millions and millions of Arabs you claim to be “Palestinian refugees” be in actuality refugees? I just do not understand how this could possibly be true. After all, I thought that the United Nations High Commission on Refugees does not recognize any following generations of refugees as refugees. The UNHCR rules clearly state refugee status stops at first generation to actually leave a place and all subsequent generations born in the country of refuge are not to be considered refugees once they reach adulthood.

    I mean after all, it is not as though there are currently today in 2011 hundreds of millions of people going around in India and Pakistan for just one example all claiming to still be refugees just because their great grandparents were driven from their homes following partition of India in 1947? Everyone would simply laugh at them if they claimed that. And neither do the millions of Jews and their descendents who were driven from Arab lands including Egypt following 1948 try to claim refugee status. That would be absurd, would it not?

  23. Shaden:

    Just to respond to your specific questions above, all the World Bank economic growth rate statistics, health and literacy rates I quoted above are for the Palestinians (not including the Jews obviously ) living in the West Bank and Gaza.

  24. Shaden:

    Just to respond to your specific questions above, all the World Bank economic growth rate statistics, health and literacy rates I quoted above are for the Palestinians (not including the Jews obviously ) living in the West Bank and Gaza.

  25. I remind you again that the crossing IS opened thanks to Egyptian protestors. It is opened because egyptian citizans do care about Palestine. it was opened before 2005 and now it is opened again.

    The descendants of Palestinian refugees are refugees too. They don't have a passport, only a travel document, if they were lucky enough to ever get a permit to go anywhere ( this information comes from a reliable source and not an internet site or a book). I don't know what happens in the rest of the world.

    Also your numbers about literacy rate and clean running water do not represent the reality. In gaza they have a major sewage system crisis ( type on google "sewage" "gaza").

    In a state of war almost everything becomes impossible. Thanks to generous donors, there was a plan to build a sewage treatment system but the project was stopped because Israel ( of course for safety vital measures ) didn't allow in the necessary equipment and raw material.

    So please, stop speaking about the Egyptians, because the people of Egypt do care for palestinians and are for opened but secured ( many abusers) border crossings. Proof: after the revolution, the crossing was again opened ( i repeat myself because you keep on repeating the same idea in different forms).

    Kind regards.

  26. N.B:

    The link between clean water and sewage system might not be so obvious. Since the second intifada Israel has restricted the movement of people and goods into Gaza. Therefor the maintenance of needed infrastructure for water was impossible ( no replacement parts). So parts of broken pipes allow raw sewage to leak into groundwater.

    So long for clean water.

  27. I remind you again that the crossing IS opened thanks to Egyptian protestors. It is opened because egyptian citizans do care about Palestine. it was opened before 2005 and now it is opened again.

    The descendants of Palestinian refugees are refugees too. They don’t have a passport, only a travel document, if they were lucky enough to ever get a permit to go anywhere ( this information comes from a reliable source and not an internet site or a book). I don’t know what happens in the rest of the world.

    Also your numbers about literacy rate and clean running water do not represent the reality. In gaza they have a major sewage system crisis ( type on google “sewage” “gaza”).

    In a state of war almost everything becomes impossible. Thanks to generous donors, there was a plan to build a sewage treatment system but the project was stopped because Israel ( of course for safety vital measures ) didn’t allow in the necessary equipment and raw material.

    So please, stop speaking about the Egyptians, because the people of Egypt do care for palestinians and are for opened but secured ( many abusers) border crossings. Proof: after the revolution, the crossing was again opened ( i repeat myself because you keep on repeating the same idea in different forms).

    Kind regards.

  28. N.B:

    The link between clean water and sewage system might not be so obvious. Since the second intifada Israel has restricted the movement of people and goods into Gaza. Therefor the maintenance of needed infrastructure for water was impossible ( no replacement parts). So parts of broken pipes allow raw sewage to leak into groundwater.

    So long for clean water.

  29. Shaden:
    Thank you for responding to my questions !

    I suppose the problem is that you and I have a quite different understanding of the meaning of the term "open border"

    You define the "open border" between Gaza and Egypt as one where but a small trickle of foot traffic made up exclusively of women and old men ( all young males are totally banned) cross each day, and the rest of the hundreds of thousands of Gazans wanting to visit Egypt must sit on a 6 month long waiting list for an extremely expensive Egyptian visa.

    I, on the other hand, claim an "open border" between Gaza and Egypt does not exist currently. I define an "open border" to be one where commercial import/export trucking is permitted to pass unfettered, just as between any European country or any North American country. It is this import and especially export of goods by way of Egypt Gaza needs to get from poverty and it is this commercial import/export which is, exactly it was always was under the dictator Mubarak, is still today completely utterly blockaded by Egypt.

    I must say though that I find it really really strange that you, an Egyptian of all people, have the nerve to complain that Israel is supposedly blockading sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza, First of all this is not true at all as you can see here in the Palestinian media reports:
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=3
    "Construction begins on Gaza wastewater treatment plant"

    But secondly, surely you must see the massive glaring contradiction in your statements? It is a plain to see as the nose on your face. You Egyptians are the ones completely blockading Gaza from any import of sewage treatment equipment by way of the Egyptian border while Israel is the one permitting sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza as the above link to Maan News proves. If you are so upset about Israel supposedly blockading sewage treatment supplies ( which it is not in reality) THEN DEMAND THE GAZA EGYPT BORDER BE OPEN!! and let Gaza import what they need, sewage equipment and otherwise, from Egypt without Israeli interference, for heavens sake.

    And thirdly, similar to how above you, an Egyptian, incredibly, shockingly made complaints about Palestinian access to education when all the data conclusively shows that Palestinian literacy rates especial for females is more that twice as high as Egypt literacy rates, you make the identical mistake again when complaining about sewage treatment in Gaza, since Gaza is far better off in terms of sewage treatment than Egypt,

    Only about one third of the Egyptian population is connected to sanitary sewers, and because of this low sanitation coverage about 17,000 Egyptian children die each year from diarrhea caused by sewage contaminated drinking water.

    source: http://www.idrc.sg/en/ev-127200-201-1-DO_TOPIC.ht
    "Actualizing the Right to Water: An Egyptian Perspective for an Action Plan by Shaden Abdel-Gawad"

    Have you ever heard the phrase " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ?" Once again I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order and start fixing your own massive problems in Egypt with education, with public infrastructure etc. etc. before you waste your time complaining about Palestine which is far better off than Egypt in almost every indicator of economic activity and public health.

    And I don't actually understand from your answer above why exactly the Arab dictators in the past refused to grant the Palestinian refugees right to citizenship and forced them and their descendants to stay confined inside squalid camps for 60 years with no human rights of any kind, But that is very much off topic.

  30. Shaden:
    Thank you for responding to my questions !

    I suppose the problem is that you and I have a quite different understanding of the meaning of the term "open border"

    You define the "open border" between Gaza and Egypt as one where but a small trickle of foot traffic made up exclusively of women and old men ( all young males are totally banned) cross each day, and the rest of the hundreds of thousands of Gazans wanting to visit Egypt must sit on a 6 month long waiting list for an extremely expensive Egyptian visa.

    I, on the other hand, claim an "open border" between Gaza and Egypt does not exist currently. I define an "open border" to be one where commercial import/export trucking is permitted to pass unfettered, just as between any European country or any North American country. It is this import and especially export of goods by way of Egypt Gaza needs to get from poverty and it is this commercial import/export which is, exactly it was always was under the dictator Mubarak, is still today completely utterly blockaded by Egypt.

    I must say though that I find it really really strange that you, an Egyptian of all people, have the nerve to complain that Israel is supposedly blockading sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza, First of all this is not true at all as you can see here in the Palestinian media reports:
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=3
    "Construction begins on Gaza wastewater treatment plant"

    But secondly, surely you must see the massive glaring contradiction in your statements? It is a plain to see as the nose on your face. You Egyptians are the ones completely blockading Gaza from any import of sewage treatment equipment by way of the Egyptian border while Israel is the one permitting sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza as the above link to Maan News proves. If you are so upset about Israel supposedly blockading sewage treatment supplies ( which it is not in reality) THEN DEMAND THE GAZA EGYPT BORDER BE OPEN!! and let Gaza import what they need, sewage equipment and otherwise, from Egypt without Israeli interference, for heavens sake.

    And thirdly, similar to how above you, an Egyptian, incredibly, shockingly made complaints about Palestinian access to education when all the data conclusively shows that Palestinian literacy rates especial for females is more that twice as high as Egypt literacy rates, you make the identical mistake again when complaining about sewage treatment in Gaza, since Gaza is far better off in terms of sewage treatment than Egypt,

    Only about one third of the Egyptian population is connected to sanitary sewers, and because of this low sanitation coverage about 17,000 Egyptian children die each year from diarrhea caused by sewage contaminated drinking water.

    source: http://www.idrc.sg/en/ev-127200-201-1-DO_TOPIC.ht
    "Actualizing the Right to Water: An Egyptian Perspective for an Action Plan by Shaden Abdel-Gawad"

    Have you ever heard the phrase " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ?" Once again I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order and start fixing your own massive problems in Egypt with education, with public infrastructure etc. etc. before you waste your time complaining about Palestine which is far better off than Egypt in almost every indicator of economic activity and public health.

    And I don't actually understand from your answer above why exactly the Arab dictators in the past refused to grant the Palestinian refugees right to citizenship and forced them and their descendants to stay confined inside squalid camps for 60 years with no human rights of any kind, But that is very much off topic.

  31. Shaden:
    Thank you for responding to my questions !

    I suppose the problem is that you and I have a quite different understanding of the meaning of the term "open border"

    You define the "open border" between Gaza and Egypt as one where but a small trickle of foot traffic made up exclusively of women and old men ( all young males are totally banned) cross each day, and the rest of the hundreds of thousands of Gazans wanting to visit Egypt must sit on a 6 month long waiting list for an extremely expensive Egyptian visa.

    I, on the other hand, claim an "open border" between Gaza and Egypt does not exist currently. I define an "open border" to be one where commercial import/export trucking is permitted to pass unfettered, just as between any European country or any North American country. It is this import and especially export of goods by way of Egypt Gaza needs to get from poverty and it is this commercial import/export which is, exactly it was always was under the dictator Mubarak, is still today completely utterly blockaded by Egypt.

    I must say though that I find it really really strange that you, an Egyptian of all people, have the nerve to complain that Israel is supposedly blockading sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza, First of all this is not true at all as you can see here in the Palestinian media reports:
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=3
    "Construction begins on Gaza wastewater treatment plant"

    But secondly, surely you must see the massive glaring contradiction in your statements? It is a plain to see as the nose on your face. You Egyptians are the ones completely blockading Gaza from any import of sewage treatment equipment by way of the Egyptian border while Israel is the one permitting sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza as the above link to Maan News proves. If you are so upset about Israel supposedly blockading sewage treatment supplies ( which it is not in reality) THEN DEMAND THE GAZA EGYPT BORDER BE OPEN!! and let Gaza import what they need, sewage equipment and otherwise, from Egypt without Israeli interference, for heavens sake.

    And thirdly, similar to how above you, an Egyptian, incredibly, shockingly made complaints about Palestinian access to education when all the data conclusively shows that Palestinian literacy rates especial for females is more that twice as high as Egypt literacy rates, you make the identical mistake again when complaining about sewage treatment in Gaza, since Gaza is far better off in terms of sewage treatment than Egypt,

    Only about one third of the Egyptian population is connected to sanitary sewers, and because of this low sanitation coverage about 17,000 Egyptian children die each year from diarrhea caused by sewage contaminated drinking water.

    source: http://www.idrc.sg/en/ev-127200-201-1-DO_TOPIC.ht
    "Actualizing the Right to Water: An Egyptian Perspective for an Action Plan by Shaden Abdel-Gawad"

    Have you ever heard the phrase " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ?" Once again I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order and start fixing your own massive problems in Egypt with education, with public infrastructure etc. etc. before you waste your time complaining about Palestine which is far better off than Egypt in almost every indicator of economic activity and public health.

    And I don't actually understand from your answer above why exactly the Arab dictators in the past refused to grant the Palestinian refugees right to citizenship and forced them and their descendants to stay confined inside squalid camps for 60 years with no human rights of any kind, But that is very much off topic.

  32. Shaden:
    Thank you for responding to my questions !

    I suppose the problem is that you and I have a quite different understanding of the meaning of the term “open border”

    You define the “open border” between Gaza and Egypt as one where but a small trickle of foot traffic made up exclusively of women and old men ( all young males are totally banned) cross each day, and the rest of the hundreds of thousands of Gazans wanting to visit Egypt must sit on a 6 month long waiting list for an extremely expensive Egyptian visa.

    I, on the other hand, claim an “open border” between Gaza and Egypt does not exist currently. I define an “open border” to be one where commercial import/export trucking is permitted to pass unfettered, just as between any European country or any North American country. It is this import and especially export of goods by way of Egypt Gaza needs to get from poverty and it is this commercial import/export which is, exactly it was always was under the dictator Mubarak, is still today completely utterly blockaded by Egypt.

    I must say though that I find it really really strange that you, an Egyptian of all people, have the nerve to complain that Israel is supposedly blockading sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza, First of all this is not true at all as you can see here in the Palestinian media reports:

    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=336054
    “Construction begins on Gaza wastewater treatment plant”

    But secondly, surely you must see the massive glaring contradiction in your statements? It is a plain to see as the nose on your face. You Egyptians are the ones completely blockading Gaza from any import of sewage treatment equipment by way of the Egyptian border while Israel is the one permitting sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza as the above link to Maan News proves. If you are so upset about Israel supposedly blockading sewage treatment supplies ( which it is not in reality) THEN DEMAND THE GAZA EGYPT BORDER BE OPEN!! and let Gaza import what they need, sewage equipment and otherwise, from Egypt without Israeli interference, for heavens sake.

    And thirdly, similar to how above you, an Egyptian, incredibly, shockingly made complaints about Palestinian access to education when all the data conclusively shows that Palestinian literacy rates especial for females is more that twice as high as Egypt literacy rates, you make the identical mistake again when complaining about sewage treatment in Gaza, since Gaza is far better off in terms of sewage treatment than Egypt,

    Only about one third of the Egyptian population is connected to sanitary sewers, and because of this low sanitation coverage about 17,000 Egyptian children die each year from diarrhea caused by sewage contaminated drinking water.

    source:
    http://www.idrc.sg/en/ev-127200-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html
    “Actualizing the Right to Water: An Egyptian Perspective for an Action Plan by Shaden Abdel-Gawad”

    Have you ever heard the phrase ” Let he who is without sin cast the first stone ?” Once again I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order and start fixing your own massive problems in Egypt with education, with public infrastructure etc. etc. before you waste your time complaining about Palestine which is far better off than Egypt in almost every indicator of economic activity and public health.

    And I don’t actually understand from your answer above why exactly the Arab dictators in the past refused to grant the Palestinian refugees right to citizenship and forced them and their descendants to stay confined inside squalid camps for 60 years with no human rights of any kind, But that is very much off topic.

  33. Judonimh,

    “I, on the other hand, claim an “open border” between Gaza and Egypt does not exist currently. I define an “open border” to be one where commercial import/export trucking is permitted to pass unfettered, just as between any European country or any North American country.”

    What you are saying is absurd for many reasons, I will mention only two.

    Reason number 1: (state of war)

    None of the European Union members – who benefit from what you call “open borders’ – are in a state of War (ongoing explosions and shooting becoming part of the city’s soundtrack like in Gaza!). Economic growth and development require political stability, that is almost a universal fact. It is not the case for the duo Egypt/Gaza.

    Reason number 2: (open borders as a result of different treaties)

    The “open borders” you speak about in your definition is the result of long cumulative treaties, it is only in 1986 that the members of the European union sign “the single European act” (completing the Rome treaty 1957), in order to establish a single market (free import/export as you say). Even the free circulation of citizens or the Schengen agreement had to wait a little longer until 1995.

    My point: “open borders” (as you define it and as you want it to be between Gaza and Egypt) were never the result of protestors raising banners (as you suggest), but long years of negotiations, treaties and political stability.

    In our case here speaking about common borders between Gaza and Egypt, it is a whole different story. So you can’t by any mean compare it to the European Union or the NAFTA.

    On another hand, you say:

    “You Egyptians are the ones completely blockading Gaza from any import of sewage treatment equipment by way of the Egyptian border while Israel is the one permitting sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza as the above link to Maan News proves.”

    1. Please stop saying “you Egyptians” it is absurd. We do not decide any of this, we do not live in a democracy, therefore the political decisions previously taken do not represent by any means the will of the Egyptian population (corrupt parlement and absence of free elections – you know that already).
    2. I opened the link the term “Egypt” or “Egyptian” doesn’t appear even once. Maybe you pasted the wrong link? You meant another one?
    3. In 2007 the project was – de facto – stopped because Israel had restricted the access of raw material, which means that 2010 is the result of some negotiations.

    “And thirdly, similar to how above you, an Egyptian, incredibly, shockingly made complaints about Palestinian access to education when all the data conclusively shows that Palestinian literacy rates especial for females is more that twice as high as Egypt literacy rates, you make the identical mistake again when complaining about sewage treatment in Gaza, since Gaza is far better off in terms of sewage treatment than Egypt,”

    “Once again I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order and start fixing your own massive problems in Egypt with education, with public infrastructure etc. etc. before you waste your time complaining about Palestine which is far better off than Egypt in almost every indicator of economic activity and public health.”

    Wrong, Gaza is not far better. Every Egyptian thinks himself lucky comparing to Palestinians who struggle to live in peace on their own lands every single day. Everything is relative.

    About the education, I am not complaining, mentioning facts isn’t a form of complaint. Egypt is a developing country; we have many problems such as education, health insurance system, social security, corruption, emergency law giving freedom to the police to abuse the citizens, etc. No one said we lived in Eldorado here, you seem like you missed the whole point of the revolution! You speak as if I said Egypt was some sort of paradise and that on the other side of the famous “Wall” it’s hell. I never said that we have no major problems here in Egypt. Any book will tell you that it is a developing country.

    Concerning your “suggestion” = “ I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order”–> we are not living on an isolated island, getting informed and becoming aware of what happens in the world is almost normal if not necessary!

    Now that I commented the different parts, I would like to sum up my point of view because this is becoming really really hectic. If you ever get the chance, stop any Palestinian (wherever you live) and ask what the real problem is; none will put first the Egyptian policy concerning the borders. It plays a role in the conflict, but it is not the main problem. You make it sound like it is.

  34. Dear Shaden,

    Can you tell now ?

    Judonimh is Zionism.

    Judonimh is Israel.

    His work on this blogsite is to SAVE Israel from DROWNING in its GLOBAL ISOLATION on Palestine.

    He is the Jewish State of Israel's's PROPAGANDIST here.

    Because Israel is RIGHTLY REVILED throughout the world for its blockade of Gaza, he AUTOMATICALLY shifts the blame for the blockade on Egypt's people.

    The more you talk of Gaza, the more he'll blame Gaza's woes on Egypt's People … to serve ISRAEL'S purposes.

    Shaden, please understand something.

    There's a BIG DIFFERENCE between you & Judonimh … not because of your different positions, but because of your different OBJECTIVES.

    The difference is as follows.

    YOU speak as an INDIVIDUAL & a truth SEEKER, Shaden.

    You speak as a debater trying to reach the truth.

    JUDONIMH speaks NEITHER as simply an individual NOR as truth "SEEKER".

    He speaks ONLY for Israel's SYSTEM, for Israel's IMPERIALIST PROJECT OF OCCUPATION OF ALL OF PALESTINE.

    For the sake of truth you, Shaden, are willing to even admit to any error you may make.

    Judominh will NEVER admit EITHER truth or error … because IF he admits EITHER, he admits Israel's BASIC FLAW at her own ROOT — that Zionism invaded a land from OUTSIDE, & is trying to drive the Indigenous People of the land OUT OF THEIR LAND.

    That's why Judonimh pours out his TOTAL HATRED of Egypt's People.

    He call them savages "baying for blood" at Mubarak's trial today.

    He foams at the mouth with his LOATHING for Egyptians.

    Shaden , don't you understand why he hates your People so much ?

    Firstly because Zionism is a WESTERN ( EUROAMERICAN ) INVASION in a NONWESTERN Region.

    Zionism is AT WAR with the ENTIRE Middle East.

    & secondly, because YOUR PEOPLE endanger Israel's plan for Mid East domination.

    Because they overthrew Israel's strongest regional ally , Mubarak.

    Judonimh will NEVER play an honest game with you.

    He'll PRETEND some things not because he believes them, but because it suits him to PRETEND TO BELIEVE them.

    For instance, he pretends to believe Egypt's People are masters in their own house ….. not because it's true, but because he can then blame THEM & not Mubarak for ALL of Egypt's failures & "THEREFORE" FOR Gaza's woes TODAY.

    That's how his distorted logic runs.

    The truth is KNOWN to all — that Egypt's People have NO POWER YET AT THE TOP, AT THE DECISION MAKING LEVEL.

    Egypt's People have only power at the BOTTOM — to push UPWARDS.

    Even Mubarak's trial is only PARTIAL — only about the shooting of demonstrators, not his decades of misrule.

    Shaden, understand Judonimh's game, the Western game, & represent your People.

    Tell us about YOUR PEOPLE.

    Tell us what THEY say, think, FEEL.

    Tell us about their PROBLEMS.

    Ignore Judonimh & his baiting, his provocation.

    Tell us about your People's DREAMS.

    For they are our INSPIRATION today.

    They are our LEADERS today.

    They are our GREAT HOPE today.

    i am with you, O People of Egypt.

    i am with YOU against the TYRANT.

    i am with YOU to call for A FULL ACCOUNTING BY THE TYRANT.

    You the People of Egypt, Oppressed for Ages…. i love you.

  35. Shaden:

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really mean that sincerely.

    But, are these not just flimsy excuses you are conjuring up out of whole cloth as to why the Gaza/Egypt border remains under full blockade to commercial import and export?

    Gaza is surely not in a state of war with Egypt, You are at peace with Gaza, no?

    And If the matter of general violence is a concern somehow, I wonder if you are aware that more than 40,000 people have been killed in the Mexican Drug wars over the last several years,

    On the other hand exactly 159 people have been killed in all Gaza/Israel fighting over the last 2.5 years, according to BtSelem the pro Palestinian human rights group. Yet the US has no problem at all maintaining open borders with Mexico, a country in the middle of an extremely bloody and escalating war whose level of violence makes Gaza's look like Switzerland.

    So your reasoning as to why Gaza should be absolutely forbidden from importing so much as a drop of cancer medication or baby formula from Egypt, and totally banned from exporting even a single bunch of fresh flowers from Gazan greenhouses destined for Europe, just do not hold much water with me I am afraid, and do not hold water with the impoverished unemployed of Gaza neither I am quite sure.

    Less than 5% of the population of rural Egypt have a sanitary sewage system according to the same reference study I posted a link to above. This fact places Egypt squarely at or near the worst of the worst of the entire third world in this regard. So I will simply observe there is a strong disconnect between your vision of Egypt vs. reality.

  36. Dear Shaden,

    Superb discourser, you.

    Avoid now the quicksand that only sucks away one's energy to the benefit of your People's enemy.

    Tell us about Egypt Egypt Egypt.

    The People.

    The trial.

    The real issues.

    The trial isn't grappling with Mubarak's poisonous legacies ( multiple ), only with its surface.

    Devote your marvellous powers of analysis to give us your viewpoint on this.

    Or tell me i am wrong …. & where.

    Need your insider's voice & vision on the real matter at hand.

  37. To learn the eternal wisdom of the Sphinx !

    She doesn't talk to provocateurs …. or fools.

    Speaks only to those who Know Her Riddle.

    Keeps Silence before Napoleon, who talks of Her only to trap his men in his game.

    Doesn't join him as he steps into ….. his quicksand.

    Just lets him sink in down …… all the way.

  38. Judonimh,

    “I, on the other hand, claim an “open border” between Gaza and Egypt does not exist currently. I define an “open border” to be one where commercial import/export trucking is permitted to pass unfettered, just as between any European country or any North American country.”

    What you are saying is absurd for many reasons, I will mention only two.

    Reason number 1: (state of war)

    None of the European Union members – who benefit from what you call “open borders’ – are in a state of War (ongoing explosions and shooting becoming part of the city’s soundtrack like in Gaza!). Economic growth and development require political stability, that is almost a universal fact. It is not the case for the duo Egypt/Gaza.

    Reason number 2: (open borders as a result of different treaties)

    The “open borders” you speak about in your definition is the result of long cumulative treaties, it is only in 1986 that the members of the European union sign “the single European act” (completing the Rome treaty 1957), in order to establish a single market (free import/export as you say). Even the free circulation of citizens or the Schengen agreement had to wait a little longer until 1995.

    My point: “open borders” (as you define it and as you want it to be between Gaza and Egypt) were never the result of protestors raising banners (as you suggest), but long years of negotiations, treaties and political stability.

    In our case here speaking about common borders between Gaza and Egypt, it is a whole different story. So you can’t by any mean compare it to the European Union or the NAFTA.

    On another hand, you say:

    “You Egyptians are the ones completely blockading Gaza from any import of sewage treatment equipment by way of the Egyptian border while Israel is the one permitting sewage treatment equipment imports to Gaza as the above link to Maan News proves.”

    1. Please stop saying “you Egyptians” it is absurd. We do not decide any of this, we do not live in a democracy, therefore the political decisions previously taken do not represent by any means the will of the Egyptian population (corrupt parlement and absence of free elections – you know that already).
    2. I opened the link the term “Egypt” or “Egyptian” doesn’t appear even once. Maybe you pasted the wrong link? You meant another one?
    3. In 2007 the project was – de facto – stopped because Israel had restricted the access of raw material, which means that 2010 is the result of some negotiations.

    “And thirdly, similar to how above you, an Egyptian, incredibly, shockingly made complaints about Palestinian access to education when all the data conclusively shows that Palestinian literacy rates especial for females is more that twice as high as Egypt literacy rates, you make the identical mistake again when complaining about sewage treatment in Gaza, since Gaza is far better off in terms of sewage treatment than Egypt,”

    “Once again I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order and start fixing your own massive problems in Egypt with education, with public infrastructure etc. etc. before you waste your time complaining about Palestine which is far better off than Egypt in almost every indicator of economic activity and public health.”

    Wrong, Gaza is not far better. Every Egyptian thinks himself lucky comparing to Palestinians who struggle to live in peace on their own lands every single day. Everything is relative.

    About the education, I am not complaining, mentioning facts isn’t a form of complaint. Egypt is a developing country; we have many problems such as education, health insurance system, social security, corruption, emergency law giving freedom to the police to abuse the citizens, etc. No one said we lived in Eldorado here, you seem like you missed the whole point of the revolution! You speak as if I said Egypt was some sort of paradise and that on the other side of the famous “Wall” it’s hell. I never said that we have no major problems here in Egypt. Any book will tell you that it is a developing country.

    Concerning your “suggestion” = “ I strongly suggest you to worry first about getting your own house in order”–> we are not living on an isolated island, getting informed and becoming aware of what happens in the world is almost normal if not necessary!

    Now that I commented the different parts, I would like to sum up my point of view because this is becoming really really hectic. If you ever get the chance, stop any Palestinian (wherever you live) and ask what the real problem is; none will put first the Egyptian policy concerning the borders. It plays a role in the conflict, but it is not the main problem. You make it sound like it is.

  39. Dear Shaden,

    Can you tell now ?

    Judonimh is Zionism.

    Judonimh is Israel.

    His work on this blogsite is to SAVE Israel from DROWNING in its GLOBAL ISOLATION on Palestine.

    He is the Jewish State of Israel’s’s PROPAGANDIST here.

    Because Israel is RIGHTLY REVILED throughout the world for its blockade of Gaza, he AUTOMATICALLY shifts the blame for the blockade on Egypt’s people.

    The more you talk of Gaza, the more he’ll blame Gaza’s woes on Egypt’s People … to serve ISRAEL’S purposes.

    Shaden, please understand something.

    There’s a BIG DIFFERENCE between you & Judonimh … not because of your different positions, but because of your different OBJECTIVES.

    The difference is as follows.

    YOU speak as an INDIVIDUAL & a truth SEEKER, Shaden.

    You speak as a debater trying to reach the truth.

    JUDONIMH speaks NEITHER as simply an individual NOR as truth “SEEKER”.

    He speaks ONLY for Israel’s SYSTEM, for Israel’s IMPERIALIST PROJECT OF OCCUPATION OF ALL OF PALESTINE.

    For the sake of truth you, Shaden, are willing to even admit to any error you may make.

    Judominh will NEVER admit EITHER truth or error … because IF he admits EITHER, he admits Israel’s BASIC FLAW at her own ROOT — that Zionism invaded a land from OUTSIDE, & is trying to drive the Indigenous People of the land OUT OF THEIR LAND.

    That’s why Judonimh pours out his TOTAL HATRED of Egypt’s People.

    He call them savages “baying for blood” at Mubarak’s trial today.

    He foams at the mouth with his LOATHING for Egyptians.

    Shaden , don’t you understand why he hates your People so much ?

    Firstly because Zionism is a WESTERN ( EUROAMERICAN ) INVASION in a NONWESTERN Region.

    Zionism is AT WAR with the ENTIRE Middle East.

    & secondly, because YOUR PEOPLE endanger Israel’s plan for Mid East domination.

    Because they overthrew Israel’s strongest regional ally , Mubarak.

    Judonimh will NEVER play an honest game with you.

    He’ll PRETEND some things not because he believes them, but because it suits him to PRETEND TO BELIEVE them.

    For instance, he pretends to believe Egypt’s People are masters in their own house ….. not because it’s true, but because he can then blame THEM & not Mubarak for ALL of Egypt’s failures & “THEREFORE” FOR Gaza’s woes TODAY.

    That’s how his distorted logic runs.

    The truth is KNOWN to all — that Egypt’s People have NO POWER YET AT THE TOP, AT THE DECISION MAKING LEVEL.

    Egypt’s People have only power at the BOTTOM — to push UPWARDS.

    Even Mubarak’s trial is only PARTIAL — only about the shooting of demonstrators, not his decades of misrule.

    Shaden, understand Judonimh’s game, the Western game, & represent your People.

    Tell us about YOUR PEOPLE.

    Tell us what THEY say, think, FEEL.

    Tell us about their PROBLEMS.

    Ignore Judonimh & his baiting, his provocation.

    Tell us about your People’s DREAMS.

    For they are our INSPIRATION today.

    They are our LEADERS today.

    They are our GREAT HOPE today.

    i am with you, O People of Egypt.

    i am with YOU against the TYRANT.

    i am with YOU to call for A FULL ACCOUNTING BY THE TYRANT.

    You the People of Egypt, Oppressed for Ages…. i love you.

  40. Shaden:

    Thank you for taking the time to respond. I really mean that sincerely.

    But, are these not just flimsy excuses you are conjuring up out of whole cloth as to why the Gaza/Egypt border remains under full blockade to commercial import and export?

    Gaza is surely not in a state of war with Egypt, You are at peace with Gaza, no?

    And If the matter of general violence is a concern somehow, I wonder if you are aware that more than 40,000 people have been killed in the Mexican Drug wars over the last several years,

    On the other hand exactly 159 people have been killed in all Gaza/Israel fighting over the last 2.5 years, according to BtSelem the pro Palestinian human rights group. Yet the US has no problem at all maintaining open borders with Mexico, a country in the middle of an extremely bloody and escalating war whose level of violence makes Gaza’s look like Switzerland.

    So your reasoning as to why Gaza should be absolutely forbidden from importing so much as a drop of cancer medication or baby formula from Egypt, and totally banned from exporting even a single bunch of fresh flowers from Gazan greenhouses destined for Europe, just do not hold much water with me I am afraid, and do not hold water with the impoverished unemployed of Gaza neither I am quite sure.

    Less than 5% of the population of rural Egypt have a sanitary sewage system according to the same reference study I posted a link to above. This fact places Egypt squarely at or near the worst of the worst of the entire third world in this regard. So I will simply observe there is a strong disconnect between your vision of Egypt vs. reality.

  41. A Savage:

    "Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting one's opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions."

  42. Dear Shaden,

    Superb discourser, you.

    Avoid now the quicksand that only sucks away one’s energy to the benefit of your People’s enemy.

    Tell us about Egypt Egypt Egypt.

    The People.

    The trial.

    The real issues.

    The trial isn’t grappling with Mubarak’s poisonous legacies ( multiple ), only with its surface.

    Devote your marvellous powers of analysis to give us your viewpoint on this.

    Or tell me i am wrong …. & where.

    Need your insider’s voice & vision on the real matter at hand.

  43. To learn the eternal wisdom of the Sphinx !

    She doesn’t talk to provocateurs …. or fools.

    Speaks only to those who Know Her Riddle.

    Keeps Silence before Napoleon, who talks of Her only to trap his men in his game.

    Doesn’t join him as he steps into ….. his quicksand.

    Just lets him sink in down …… all the way.

  44. A Savage:

    “Abusive ad hominem (also called personal abuse or personal attacks) usually involves insulting one’s opponent in order to attack his claim or invalidate his argument. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults and negative facts about the opponent have nothing to do with the logical merits of the opponent’s arguments or assertions.”

  45. Thank you a.savage!

    Judonimh,

    This is hectic because, if we suppose that the conflict is 4 dimensional, you seem to be seeing and sticking to only one dimension!

    You say: “Gaza is surely not in a state of war with Egypt, You are at peace with Gaza, no?”

    1. I OBVIOUSLY meant “state of war” on the Palestinian occupied lands, and not with Egypt.
    2. Gaza is not a country. If you are speaking about the State of Palestine, then it is OBVIOUS that we are not enemies.

    You say: “On the other hand exactly 159 people have been killed in all Gaza/Israel fighting over the last 2.5 years, “

    I say : on Wednesday 14 January 2009 “The Palestinian death toll in the Gaza conflict climbed to more than 1,000 today after nearly three weeks of intensive Israeli bombing and fighting on the ground. So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, “ (source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-

    My Point: one thousand were killed in ONLY one day in 2009. Maybe you dropped a zero or two when you wrote 159.

    You say: “So your reasoning as to why Gaza should be absolutely forbidden from importing so much as a drop of cancer medication or baby formula from Egypt,”

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, because you didn’t follow my “reasoning”.

    a- I supposed (just to make you happy) that what you are saying was true (reminder: it’s wrong).
    b- Then I tried to prove to you with geographical facts that even if the Egypt/Gaza common borders were blocked, the misery witnessed in Gaza wouldn’t be only the result of this blockage. Simply because it is not the only access point, since Gaza shares 51 km with Israel and has a 42 Km long coastal line.
    c- Conclusion: Egypt might be an active actor in the Israel-Palestine conflict via the shared borders, but it could never be held responsible – as you state – of all the economical/environmental/social problems, the thousands of dead Palestinian (first AND second intifada) weren’t shot/killed by us but by the Israeli Soldiers.
    d- I never even used the term “forbidden”, that’s what you read in your own language and not what I write/wrote.

    Conclusion: Please open your eyes.

    You say: “Less than 5% of the population of rural Egypt have a sanitary sewage system according to the same reference study I posted a link to above. This fact places Egypt squarely at or near the worst of the worst of the entire third world in this regard. So I will simply observe there is a strong disconnect between your vision of Egypt vs. reality.”

    I already replied to that, I do not see the point of repeating yourself. I even said you missed the whole point of the revolution. It’s no secret that Egypt is a third world country (or as others like to say “developing” country). I SEE the complete reality; I even lived my whole life in Egypt (surprise surprise?) where I got the chance to get a closer look – can you even believe it?! We have uncountable problems in Egypt, but we are not in war with any other State, which makes progress, political change and development possible if not reachable on the long term (hopes being revived after the revolution but not yet completely justified). During war or ongoing bombing and shooting, the only concern becomes to save the territory – or gain some more.
    (and Egypt is not "the worst of the worst" concerning the sewage system you clearly don't know what happens in the Niger Delta – or other African countries. But you are not informed and that is okay with me).

    Maybe a.savage is right; there is a big difference between us – and I shall say it is not the end of the world. Just the end of this conversation. since it's going nowhere – after many comments/replies.

  46. Thank you a.savage!

    Judonimh,

    This is hectic because, if we suppose that the conflict is 4 dimensional, you seem to be seeing and sticking to only one dimension!

    You say: “Gaza is surely not in a state of war with Egypt, You are at peace with Gaza, no?”

    1. I OBVIOUSLY meant “state of war” on the Palestinian occupied lands, and not with Egypt.
    2. Gaza is not a country. If you are speaking about the State of Palestine, then it is OBVIOUS that we are not enemies.

    You say: “On the other hand exactly 159 people have been killed in all Gaza/Israel fighting over the last 2.5 years, “

    I say : on Wednesday 14 January 2009 “The Palestinian death toll in the Gaza conflict climbed to more than 1,000 today after nearly three weeks of intensive Israeli bombing and fighting on the ground. So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, “ (source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-

    My Point: one thousand were killed in ONLY one day in 2009. Maybe you dropped a zero or two when you wrote 159.

    You say: “So your reasoning as to why Gaza should be absolutely forbidden from importing so much as a drop of cancer medication or baby formula from Egypt,”

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, because you didn’t follow my “reasoning”.

    a- I supposed (just to make you happy) that what you are saying was true (reminder: it’s wrong).
    b- Then I tried to prove to you with geographical facts that even if the Egypt/Gaza common borders were blocked, the misery witnessed in Gaza wouldn’t be only the result of this blockage. Simply because it is not the only access point, since Gaza shares 51 km with Israel and has a 42 Km long coastal line.
    c- Conclusion: Egypt might be an active actor in the Israel-Palestine conflict via the shared borders, but it could never be held responsible – as you state – of all the economical/environmental/social problems, the thousands of dead Palestinian (first AND second intifada) weren’t shot/killed by us but by the Israeli Soldiers.
    d- I never even used the term “forbidden”, that’s what you read in your own language and not what I write/wrote.

    Conclusion: Please open your eyes.

    You say: “Less than 5% of the population of rural Egypt have a sanitary sewage system according to the same reference study I posted a link to above. This fact places Egypt squarely at or near the worst of the worst of the entire third world in this regard. So I will simply observe there is a strong disconnect between your vision of Egypt vs. reality.”

    I already replied to that, I do not see the point of repeating yourself. I even said you missed the whole point of the revolution. It’s no secret that Egypt is a third world country (or as others like to say “developing” country). I SEE the complete reality; I even lived my whole life in Egypt (surprise surprise?) where I got the chance to get a closer look – can you even believe it?! We have uncountable problems in Egypt, but we are not in war with any other State, which makes progress, political change and development possible if not reachable on the long term (hopes being revived after the revolution but not yet completely justified). During war or ongoing bombing and shooting, the only concern becomes to save the territory – or gain some more.
    (and Egypt is not "the worst of the worst" concerning the sewage system you clearly don't know what happens in the Niger Delta – or other African countries. But you are not informed and that is okay with me).

    Maybe a.savage is right; there is a big difference between us – and I shall say it is not the end of the world. Just the end of this conversation. since it's going nowhere – after many comments/replies.

  47. Thank you a.savage!

    Judonimh,

    This is hectic because, if we suppose that the conflict is 4 dimensional, you seem to be seeing and sticking to only one dimension!

    You say: “Gaza is surely not in a state of war with Egypt, You are at peace with Gaza, no?”

    1. I OBVIOUSLY meant “state of war” on the Palestinian occupied lands, and not with Egypt.
    2. Gaza is not a country. If you are speaking about the State of Palestine, then it is OBVIOUS that we are not enemies.

    You say: “On the other hand exactly 159 people have been killed in all Gaza/Israel fighting over the last 2.5 years, “

    I say : on Wednesday 14 January 2009 “The Palestinian death toll in the Gaza conflict climbed to more than 1,000 today after nearly three weeks of intensive Israeli bombing and fighting on the ground. So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, “ (source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-

    My Point: one thousand were killed in ONLY one day in 2009. Maybe you dropped a zero or two when you wrote 159.

    You say: “So your reasoning as to why Gaza should be absolutely forbidden from importing so much as a drop of cancer medication or baby formula from Egypt,”

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, because you didn’t follow my “reasoning”.

    a- I supposed (just to make you happy) that what you are saying was true (reminder: it’s wrong).
    b- Then I tried to prove to you with geographical facts that even if the Egypt/Gaza common borders were blocked, the misery witnessed in Gaza wouldn’t be only the result of this blockage. Simply because it is not the only access point, since Gaza shares 51 km with Israel and has a 42 Km long coastal line.
    c- Conclusion: Egypt might be an active actor in the Israel-Palestine conflict via the shared borders, but it could never be held responsible – as you state – of all the economical/environmental/social problems, the thousands of dead Palestinian (first AND second intifada) weren’t shot/killed by us but by the Israeli Soldiers.
    d- I never even used the term “forbidden”, that’s what you read in your own language and not what I write/wrote.

    Conclusion: Please open your eyes.

    You say: “Less than 5% of the population of rural Egypt have a sanitary sewage system according to the same reference study I posted a link to above. This fact places Egypt squarely at or near the worst of the worst of the entire third world in this regard. So I will simply observe there is a strong disconnect between your vision of Egypt vs. reality.”

    I already replied to that, I do not see the point of repeating yourself. I even said you missed the whole point of the revolution. It’s no secret that Egypt is a third world country (or as others like to say “developing” country). I SEE the complete reality; I even lived my whole life in Egypt (surprise surprise?) where I got the chance to get a closer look – can you even believe it?! We have uncountable problems in Egypt, but we are not in war with any other State, which makes progress, political change and development possible if not reachable on the long term (hopes being revived after the revolution but not yet completely justified). During war or ongoing bombing and shooting, the only concern becomes to save the territory – or gain some more.
    (and Egypt is not "the worst of the worst" concerning the sewage system you clearly don't know what happens in the Niger Delta – or other African countries. But you are not informed and that is okay with me).

    Maybe a.savage is right; there is a big difference between us – and I shall say it is not the end of the world. Just the end of this conversation. since it's going nowhere – after many comments/replies.

  48. Thank you a.savage!

    Judonimh,

    This is hectic because, if we suppose that the conflict is 4 dimensional, you seem to be seeing and sticking to only one dimension!

    You say: “Gaza is surely not in a state of war with Egypt, You are at peace with Gaza, no?”

    1. I OBVIOUSLY meant “state of war” on the Palestinian occupied lands, and not with Egypt.
    2. Gaza is not a country. If you are speaking about the State of Palestine, then it is OBVIOUS that we are not enemies.

    You say: “On the other hand exactly 159 people have been killed in all Gaza/Israel fighting over the last 2.5 years, “

    I say : on Wednesday 14 January 2009 “The Palestinian death toll in the Gaza conflict climbed to more than 1,000 today after nearly three weeks of intensive Israeli bombing and fighting on the ground. So far, 1,010 Palestinians have been killed, among them 315 children and 95 women, “ (source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/14/gaza-city-fighiting-israel-un)

    My Point: one thousand were killed in ONLY one day in 2009. Maybe you dropped a zero or two when you wrote 159.

    You say: “So your reasoning as to why Gaza should be absolutely forbidden from importing so much as a drop of cancer medication or baby formula from Egypt,”

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, because you didn’t follow my “reasoning”.

    a- I supposed (just to make you happy) that what you are saying was true (reminder: it’s wrong).
    b- Then I tried to prove to you with geographical facts that even if the Egypt/Gaza common borders were blocked, the misery witnessed in Gaza wouldn’t be only the result of this blockage. Simply because it is not the only access point, since Gaza shares 51 km with Israel and has a 42 Km long coastal line.
    c- Conclusion: Egypt might be an active actor in the Israel-Palestine conflict via the shared borders, but it could never be held responsible – as you state – of all the economical/environmental/social problems, the thousands of dead Palestinian (first AND second intifada) weren’t shot/killed by us but by the Israeli Soldiers.
    d- I never even used the term “forbidden”, that’s what you read in your own language and not what I write/wrote.

    Conclusion: Please open your eyes.

    You say: “Less than 5% of the population of rural Egypt have a sanitary sewage system according to the same reference study I posted a link to above. This fact places Egypt squarely at or near the worst of the worst of the entire third world in this regard. So I will simply observe there is a strong disconnect between your vision of Egypt vs. reality.”

    I already replied to that, I do not see the point of repeating yourself. I even said you missed the whole point of the revolution. It’s no secret that Egypt is a third world country (or as others like to say “developing” country). I SEE the complete reality; I even lived my whole life in Egypt (surprise surprise?) where I got the chance to get a closer look – can you even believe it?! We have uncountable problems in Egypt, but we are not in war with any other State, which makes progress, political change and development possible if not reachable on the long term (hopes being revived after the revolution but not yet completely justified). During war or ongoing bombing and shooting, the only concern becomes to save the territory – or gain some more.
    (and Egypt is not “the worst of the worst” concerning the sewage system you clearly don’t know what happens in the Niger Delta – or other African countries. But you are not informed and that is okay with me).

    Maybe a.savage is right; there is a big difference between us – and I shall say it is not the end of the world. Just the end of this conversation. since it’s going nowhere – after many comments/replies.

  49. Dear Shaden,

    A formidable polemicist, you !

    Every word you utter firmly in place with its own reasoning !

    No — Egypt isn't the worst of the worst.Not at all.

    For Egypt is in Egypt, where she rightfully belongs, she doesn't STEAL & OCCUPY THE LANDS OF OTHERS !!!

    The powers that invade & occupy other nations are the worst of the worst !!!!

    So right you are, Shaden, to say the Egyptian People's hopes have been "revived" but not fully "justified" by the Revolution.

    That's why the Revolution CONTINUES … from Tahrir in Cahrir, out to Sinai & Upper Egypt !

    Why IS Egypt ( along with so many other lands ) so weak, so poor ??

    Because she ( & the rest ) are dominated by the white man. The Western powers.

    Egypt's gas is stolen by Israel at cheapened prices !!

    Egypt's economy bound & distorted by the neoliberal "reforms" IMPOSED on her by the IMF ( America ) !!

    After CREATING the problem himself, the white man steps back & shakes his head at the "backwardness" of Egypt & other lands, saying it's an "Egyptian problem", a "local "problem".

    But the People Know the reasons & the roots of their underdevelopment.

    They Know their Sovereignty is stolen under the present System propped up by America.

    For months the Egyptian People couldn't bring Netanyahu's old pal Mubarak to justice from his house in Sharm El Sheikh, where he hid after his fall.

    Why ?

    Because the Egyptian army couldn't even enter that territory …. for Israel won't let the Egyptian military enter Sharm El Sheikh… for Israel's own "security" !!

    Incredible !!

    Can we imagine any Western state which can't enter any part of its territory because its neighbor told it it can't ???

    The entire world's in chains … not just Egypt !!!

    & those who rub our noses in our bondage are the VERY ONES who have put us in them !!!!

  50. Sharm el- Sheikh's the iceberg's tip.

    Egypt's army can't enter the Sinai Peninsula without Israel's permission !!

    Think how low Egypt's Sovereignty has fallen from Nasser's proud age !!

    Israel's even thinking of seizing the Sinai from Egypt !!

    Another war, any day ?

    Revolution in the time of War.

    Revolution to restore Egypt's Sovereignty.

  51. Dear Shaden,

    A formidable polemicist, you !

    Every word you utter firmly in place with its own reasoning !

    No — Egypt isn’t the worst of the worst.Not at all.

    For Egypt is in Egypt, where she rightfully belongs, she doesn’t STEAL & OCCUPY THE LANDS OF OTHERS !!!

    The powers that invade & occupy other nations are the worst of the worst !!!!

    So right you are, Shaden, to say the Egyptian People’s hopes have been “revived” but not fully “justified” by the Revolution.

    That’s why the Revolution CONTINUES … from Tahrir in Cahrir, out to Sinai & Upper Egypt !

    Why IS Egypt ( along with so many other lands ) so weak, so poor ??

    Because she ( & the rest ) are dominated by the white man. The Western powers.

    Egypt’s gas is stolen by Israel at cheapened prices !!

    Egypt’s economy bound & distorted by the neoliberal “reforms” IMPOSED on her by the IMF ( America ) !!

    After CREATING the problem himself, the white man steps back & shakes his head at the “backwardness” of Egypt & other lands, saying it’s an “Egyptian problem”, a “local “problem”.

    But the People Know the reasons & the roots of their underdevelopment.

    They Know their Sovereignty is stolen under the present System propped up by America.

    For months the Egyptian People couldn’t bring Netanyahu’s old pal Mubarak to justice from his house in Sharm El Sheikh, where he hid after his fall.

    Why ?

    Because the Egyptian army couldn’t even enter that territory …. for Israel won’t let the Egyptian military enter Sharm El Sheikh… for Israel’s own “security” !!

    Incredible !!

    Can we imagine any Western state which can’t enter any part of its territory because its neighbor told it it can’t ???

    The entire world’s in chains … not just Egypt !!!

    & those who rub our noses in our bondage are the VERY ONES who have put us in them !!!!

  52. Sharm el- Sheikh’s the iceberg’s tip.

    Egypt’s army can’t enter the Sinai Peninsula without Israel’s permission !!

    Think how low Egypt’s Sovereignty has fallen from Nasser’s proud age !!

    Israel’s even thinking of seizing the Sinai from Egypt !!

    Another war, any day ?

    Revolution in the time of War.

    Revolution to restore Egypt’s Sovereignty.

  53. Thank you for your response. To draw this conversation to a close I must quickly clarify facts.

    Hamas Minister of Interior Fathi Hamad acknowledged that between 600 to 700 of the casualties in the 2009 Gaza war were not civilians.

    This is according the Palestinian Maan news: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=3

    In the past 2.5 years, from the end of fighting in January 2009 till today,there have been exactly 159 Gazans killed by Israelis.

    Of these 159 Gazans killed, 98 were military, 49 were civilian.

    You can see a list of the details of each Gazan casualty here; http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/casualt

    In any event Shaden, thank you for answering my questions. I learned a lot from you.

    I pray that one day there will be peace among all of us and the bloodshed will end and one day the only statistics anyone will need to consult are not death numbers but life numbers, the numbers of schools and hospitals and factories being built in Israel and Gaza and Egypt.

  54. Thank you for your response. To draw this conversation to a close I must quickly clarify facts.

    Hamas Minister of Interior Fathi Hamad acknowledged that between 600 to 700 of the casualties in the 2009 Gaza war were not civilians.

    This is according the Palestinian Maan news: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=3

    In the past 2.5 years, from the end of fighting in January 2009 till today,there have been exactly 159 Gazans killed by Israelis.

    Of these 159 Gazans killed, 98 were military, 49 were civilian.

    You can see a list of the details of each Gazan casualty here; http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/casualt

    In any event Shaden, thank you for answering my questions. I learned a lot from you.

    I pray that one day there will be peace among all of us and the bloodshed will end and one day the only statistics anyone will need to consult are not death numbers but life numbers, the numbers of schools and hospitals and factories being built in Israel and Gaza and Egypt.

  55. Thank you for your response. To draw this conversation to a close I must quickly clarify facts.

    Hamas Minister of Interior Fathi Hamad acknowledged that between 600 to 700 of the casualties in the 2009 Gaza war were not civilians.

    This is according the Palestinian Maan news: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=3

    In the past 2.5 years, from the end of fighting in January 2009 till today,there have been exactly 159 Gazans killed by Israelis.

    Of these 159 Gazans killed, 98 were military, 49 were civilian.

    You can see a list of the details of each Gazan casualty here; http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/casualt

    In any event Shaden, thank you for answering my questions. I learned a lot from you.

    I pray that one day there will be peace among all of us and the bloodshed will end and one day the only statistics anyone will need to consult are not death numbers but life numbers, the numbers of schools and hospitals and factories being built in Israel and Gaza and Egypt.

  56. A. Savage

    Did you know Israel had 3500 soldiers killed in the 1973 war with Egypt?
    Any Israeli leader that would ever even dream of touching even one centimeter of Egyptian soil, or so much as one grain of Egyptian sand would be most probably be killed by his own soldiers on the spot.

    It also seems clear a majority of the Egyptian people and political parties do not want war. Even the Muslim Brotherhood, who by the way had 10s of thousands of Muslim Brothers tortured and executed by your hero the bloody dictator Naser, seem to be in no great rush for war with Israel either. They all obviously reckon the cost of war is just not worth it anymore

    Only you, Savage seems to be hoping for a war.

  57. Thank you for your response. To draw this conversation to a close I must quickly clarify facts.

    Hamas Minister of Interior Fathi Hamad acknowledged that between 600 to 700 of the casualties in the 2009 Gaza war were not civilians.

    This is according the Palestinian Maan news:
    http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=329861

    In the past 2.5 years, from the end of fighting in January 2009 till today,there have been exactly 159 Gazans killed by Israelis.

    Of these 159 Gazans killed, 98 were military, 49 were civilian.

    You can see a list of the details of each Gazan casualty here;
    http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/casualties.asp?sD=19&sM=01&sY=2009&filterby=event&oferet_stat=after

    In any event Shaden, thank you for answering my questions. I learned a lot from you.

    I pray that one day there will be peace among all of us and the bloodshed will end and one day the only statistics anyone will need to consult are not death numbers but life numbers, the numbers of schools and hospitals and factories being built in Israel and Gaza and Egypt.

  58. A. Savage

    Did you know Israel had 3500 soldiers killed in the 1973 war with Egypt?
    Any Israeli leader that would ever even dream of touching even one centimeter of Egyptian soil, or so much as one grain of Egyptian sand would be most probably be killed by his own soldiers on the spot.

    It also seems clear a majority of the Egyptian people and political parties do not want war. Even the Muslim Brotherhood, who by the way had 10s of thousands of Muslim Brothers tortured and executed by your hero the bloody dictator Naser, seem to be in no great rush for war with Israel either. They all obviously reckon the cost of war is just not worth it anymore

    Only you, Savage seems to be hoping for a war.

  59. A. Savage:

    I find it bewildering that a few days ago in reference to Syria you wrote that your solution was to "send in Jimmy Carter"

    Do you realize the thing Jimmy Carter is most personally proud of more than any other accomplishment in his life, the thing he won his Noble Peace prize for was the Israel-Egypt Peace treaty which includes the specification that Sinai desert shall remain demilitarized for ever more.

    Yet here, not a few days passed after you suggested Jimmy Carter be sent to Syria to talk to the psycho killers, here you are expressing your most fervent desire is to see Jimmy Carter's crowning glory, the peace treaty, just torn up and chucked into the trash. You are an odd bird, a. savage.

    Egypt has some real serious problems, like a majority of females did not learn to read or write, disease, lack of sanitation etc. etc. etc. We have touched on some of these problems above. I cannot think of a single action that would be more damaging to the efforts to fix Egypt's problems than to start crazy wars up. Where will the billions and billions such a war would cost come from, did you ever ask yourself that, hey Mr a. Savage?

    I shall tell you: Every bullet fired shall be as but a spoonful of food taken out of the mouth of a hungry child,

  60. A. Savage:

    I find it bewildering that a few days ago in reference to Syria you wrote that your solution was to “send in Jimmy Carter”

    Do you realize the thing Jimmy Carter is most personally proud of more than any other accomplishment in his life, the thing he won his Noble Peace prize for was the Israel-Egypt Peace treaty which includes the specification that Sinai desert shall remain demilitarized for ever more.

    Yet here, not a few days passed after you suggested Jimmy Carter be sent to Syria to talk to the psycho killers, here you are expressing your most fervent desire is to see Jimmy Carter’s crowning glory, the peace treaty, just torn up and chucked into the trash. You are an odd bird, a. savage.

    Egypt has some real serious problems, like a majority of females did not learn to read or write, disease, lack of sanitation etc. etc. etc. We have touched on some of these problems above. I cannot think of a single action that would be more damaging to the efforts to fix Egypt’s problems than to start crazy wars up. Where will the billions and billions such a war would cost come from, did you ever ask yourself that, hey Mr a. Savage?

    I shall tell you: Every bullet fired shall be as but a spoonful of food taken out of the mouth of a hungry child,

  61. Judonimh,

    White phosphorus is a chemical weapon that melts flesh to bone causing fatal burns.

    You previsouly said that Egypt stops cancer medication from getting to Gaza (if we suppose that what you are saying is true), but did you ask yourself why the number of cancer patients has been climbing in Gaza?

    Many of those patients come from areas attacked by Israeli jets using banned chemical weapons. Doctors depleted uranium in the bodies of those same patients.

    Can you realize how inhuman? Can you? Can you reply without mentioning a counterexample?

    You will find many articles and studies referring to the above.
    Kind and sincere regards.

  62. Shaden:

    Just a note that in checking the World Health Organization statistics for Egypt, I noticed they WHO says rural sewage sanitation in Egypt is much much improved now so the above study I posted earlier is probably out of date.

    Shaden: it is absolutely true that Egypt currently forbids the regular importation of medicine or food or anything else over the Raffa border to Gaza.

    Egypt has made a small number of rare exceptions for a handful of aid shipments for propaganda reasons but as a rule in general the Egypt border is closed tighter than A. Savage's mind is to reality, all commercial import and for sure export from /to Egypt forbidden.

    The reasons Egypt is doing this are complex as you said , but I believe they have primarily to do with the 400,000 Sinai Beduin who currently are in de facto independent military control of Sinai at the moment and the billions of dollars they have earned from the cross border tunnel smuggling trade, money which would evaporate if the Egyptian border were to be properly opened to commercial trade as it should be. And Hamas is heavily taxing the tunnel smuggling as well, to the tune of over %90 of its budget expenditures and so Hamas is also concerned this smuggling tax revenue will cease if the Egypt border is open as a normal border as in between the US and Mexico.

    In any event, according to the health statistics from the World Health Organization of the United Nations, the Palestinian people are approximately as healthy or healthier and live as long or longer than the Egyptian people.

    For example the average life expectancy for Palestinian males is 70.5 years, for Palestinian females is 73.2 years.

    The average life expectancy for Egyptian males is 69 years, for Egyptian females is also 73 years.

    For maternal mortality which is the ratio of mothers deaths following birth, per every 10000 live births, 38 Palestinian mothers die,

    Whereas per every 10000 live births, 82 Egyptian mothers die.

    In some other areas, such as the percentage of children who will die before reaching the age 5, Egypt is slightly more healthy than Palestine, with 21 children dieing before age 5 out of 1000, whereas in Palestine the number is 28 Palestinian children dieing before age 5 out of 1000.

    Palestinian cancer rates are slightly higher than Egyptian but this is mainly due to %48 of the Palestinian male populations smoking tobacco, one of the worst cancer causing agents known to mankind, whereas in Egypt the number of male cigarette smokers has dropped to %27.

    And so on. Palestine and Egypt actually have a quite similar health status overall. Both Palestine and Egypt are near the top of the third developing world in terms of health.

    Peace.

  63. Judonimh,

    My question wasn't rhetorical.

    Do you realize how inhuman it is for Israël to use chemical weapons ?

    Please search this up. I won't quote nor recommend any reference here, you can do it, if you wish.

  64. Judonimh,

    White phosphorus is a chemical weapon that melts flesh to bone causing fatal burns.

    You previsouly said that Egypt stops cancer medication from getting to Gaza (if we suppose that what you are saying is true), but did you ask yourself why the number of cancer patients has been climbing in Gaza?

    Many of those patients come from areas attacked by Israeli jets using banned chemical weapons. Doctors depleted uranium in the bodies of those same patients.

    Can you realize how inhuman? Can you? Can you reply without mentioning a counterexample?

    You will find many articles and studies referring to the above.
    Kind and sincere regards.

  65. Shaden:

    Just a note that in checking the World Health Organization statistics for Egypt, I noticed they WHO says rural sewage sanitation in Egypt is much much improved now so the above study I posted earlier is probably out of date.

    Shaden: it is absolutely true that Egypt currently forbids the regular importation of medicine or food or anything else over the Raffa border to Gaza.

    Egypt has made a small number of rare exceptions for a handful of aid shipments for propaganda reasons but as a rule in general the Egypt border is closed tighter than A. Savage’s mind is to reality, all commercial import and for sure export from /to Egypt forbidden.

    The reasons Egypt is doing this are complex as you said , but I believe they have primarily to do with the 400,000 Sinai Beduin who currently are in de facto independent military control of Sinai at the moment and the billions of dollars they have earned from the cross border tunnel smuggling trade, money which would evaporate if the Egyptian border were to be properly opened to commercial trade as it should be. And Hamas is heavily taxing the tunnel smuggling as well, to the tune of over %90 of its budget expenditures and so Hamas is also concerned this smuggling tax revenue will cease if the Egypt border is open as a normal border as in between the US and Mexico.

    In any event, according to the health statistics from the World Health Organization of the United Nations, the Palestinian people are approximately as healthy or healthier and live as long or longer than the Egyptian people.

    For example the average life expectancy for Palestinian males is 70.5 years, for Palestinian females is 73.2 years.

    The average life expectancy for Egyptian males is 69 years, for Egyptian females is also 73 years.

    For maternal mortality which is the ratio of mothers deaths following birth, per every 10000 live births, 38 Palestinian mothers die,

    Whereas per every 10000 live births, 82 Egyptian mothers die.

    In some other areas, such as the percentage of children who will die before reaching the age 5, Egypt is slightly more healthy than Palestine, with 21 children dieing before age 5 out of 1000, whereas in Palestine the number is 28 Palestinian children dieing before age 5 out of 1000.

    Palestinian cancer rates are slightly higher than Egyptian but this is mainly due to %48 of the Palestinian male populations smoking tobacco, one of the worst cancer causing agents known to mankind, whereas in Egypt the number of male cigarette smokers has dropped to %27.

    And so on. Palestine and Egypt actually have a quite similar health status overall. Both Palestine and Egypt are near the top of the third developing world in terms of health.

    Peace.

  66. We both agree that war is terrible, especially the use of chemical wepons

    As you of course know the very first use of chemical weapons since World War 1 was conducted by the Egyptian Army during the The Egyptian-North Yemen War (1962-1967). The dictator Naser dropped thousands of aerial bombs containing phosgene gas, mustard gas, and nerve agents on the poorly armed Yemeni tribesmen who had no gas masks and were defenseless to the Egyptian tactic. Casualty estimates vary but it seems tens of thousands of Yemenis including civilians were killed by Egyptian chemical warfare. Egypt remains to this day one of the only countries on earth to have used chemical weapons in the modern era. To this day, 2011, the Egyptian Army maintains a very active offensive chemical and biological warfare operation with mass stockpiles of medium range rockets tipped with mustard and nerve gas warheads. This is even though Egypt has signed treaties pledging to eliminate its non-conventional weapons stockpiles.

    As far as what happened in Gaza in January 2009, every Army in the world has these smoke bombs including the Egyptian Army.

    Yes Israel used smoke bombs during the fighting, but they not intended as chemical weapons but as smoke screens for hiding behind. The use of the smoke bombs by Israel did cause several building fires and a small number of the total casualty count during the Gaza War of January 2009, but this was secondary to the intended effect of smoke.

    Israel has now changed its policies as a result of the criticism on this issue and banned their use near homes and civilians. I hope there is not a next war, just peace, but if there is another war, I hope this weapon is never used again by Israel near civilians, and I hope any other Army like the Egyptian Army which also possess massive numbers of these smoke bombs will also not use them near civilians.

    Source:
    The Goldstone Report on the Gaza War presented to the human Rights Council

    "The Goldstone Mission accept that white phosphorous is not at this stage proscribed under international law,"

    "The Goldstone Mission understands the need to use obscurants and illuminants for various reasons during military operations and especially in screening troops from observation or enemy fire. There are, however, other screening and illuminating means which are free from the toxicities, volatilities and hazards that are inherent in the chemical white phosphorous. The use of white phosphorous in any from in and around areas dedicated to the health and safety of civilians has been shown to carry very substantial risks. The Mission therefore believes that serious consideration should be given to banning the use of white phosphorous as an obscurant."

  67. Judonimh,

    My question wasn’t rhetorical.

    Do you realize how inhuman it is for Israël to use chemical weapons ?

    Please search this up. I won’t quote nor recommend any reference here, you can do it, if you wish.

  68. We both agree that war is terrible, especially the use of chemical wepons

    As you of course know the very first use of chemical weapons since World War 1 was conducted by the Egyptian Army during the The Egyptian-North Yemen War (1962-1967). The dictator Naser dropped thousands of aerial bombs containing phosgene gas, mustard gas, and nerve agents on the poorly armed Yemeni tribesmen who had no gas masks and were defenseless to the Egyptian tactic. Casualty estimates vary but it seems tens of thousands of Yemenis including civilians were killed by Egyptian chemical warfare. Egypt remains to this day one of the only countries on earth to have used chemical weapons in the modern era. To this day, 2011, the Egyptian Army maintains a very active offensive chemical and biological warfare operation with mass stockpiles of medium range rockets tipped with mustard and nerve gas warheads. This is even though Egypt has signed treaties pledging to eliminate its non-conventional weapons stockpiles.

    As far as what happened in Gaza in January 2009, every Army in the world has these smoke bombs including the Egyptian Army.

    Yes Israel used smoke bombs during the fighting, but they not intended as chemical weapons but as smoke screens for hiding behind. The use of the smoke bombs by Israel did cause several building fires and a small number of the total casualty count during the Gaza War of January 2009, but this was secondary to the intended effect of smoke.

    Israel has now changed its policies as a result of the criticism on this issue and banned their use near homes and civilians. I hope there is not a next war, just peace, but if there is another war, I hope this weapon is never used again by Israel near civilians, and I hope any other Army like the Egyptian Army which also possess massive numbers of these smoke bombs will also not use them near civilians.

    Source:
    The Goldstone Report on the Gaza War presented to the human Rights Council

    “The Goldstone Mission accept that white phosphorous is not at this stage proscribed under international law,”

    “The Goldstone Mission understands the need to use obscurants and illuminants for various reasons during military operations and especially in screening troops from observation or enemy fire. There are, however, other screening and illuminating means which are free from the toxicities, volatilities and hazards that are inherent in the chemical white phosphorous. The use of white phosphorous in any from in and around areas dedicated to the health and safety of civilians has been shown to carry very substantial risks. The Mission therefore believes that serious consideration should be given to banning the use of white phosphorous as an obscurant.”