Update: Despite the efforts of Rais and Amnesty activists to stay the execution of Mark Stroman, he was executed last night by the state of Texas. But there is more work to be done in the fight against the death penalty. Learn more and take action on our website.
Mark Stroman is set to be executed in Texas on July 20, despite the best of efforts of his one surviving victim to try to spare his life. As readers of this blog will know, Rais Bhuiyan, a Muslim from Bangladesh, was shot and left for dead during Stroman’s series of attacks on Middle Eastern looking men after September 11, 2001. Bhuiyan’s efforts to halt the execution now include a lawsuit against the Lone Star State alleging that his rights as a victim have been violated.
Both Bhuiyan and Stroman have spoken with CBS News (see video) and the New York Times about this extraordinary situation, but they have not had the chance to meet face-to-face, which is why Bhuiyan is seeking at least a delay in the execution.
It will be interesting to see what respect the state of Texas offers for the rights of victims in this case, when it appears none of them want Mark Stroman to be put to death. As the Dallas Morning News points out, retribution for the victims is one of the main justifications, cited by courts and others, for retaining capital punishment. But when the victims do not want that retribution, what exactly is the point of proceeding with the execution?
Let's ask the other two victims:
49 year old Vasudev Patel. Naturalized U.S. Citizen from India. He moved to the United States in 1983. Living the American dream. He was working at a gas-station in my hometown of Mesquite, Texas.
Or… 46 year old Waqar Hasan – a Pakisani Immigrant that moved to Dallas, Texas in 2001. He operated his own convenient store.
Let's ask them… Oh wait, we can't. They are both dead – brutally shot and murdered by an admitted member of the White Supremacist group – Aryan Brotherhood. A man who created a make believe sister that died at the world trade center – perhaps in order to appeal to your bleeding heart? A man who made obscene gestures to his victim's family in court. A man that enjoys his cult following and being worshipped by white supremacists. A man who proclaimed after 9-11 that the Government wasn't doing it's job – he was going to do it for them.
You never tell the whole story.
Lay off of it, Brian No-Last-Name! YOU are the reason for the online mob mentality of those who want "illegal immigrant monsters" dead in spite of denied consular access, and you NEVER respect Bhuiyan's statements about acting on behalf of the families of Vasudev Patel and Waqar Hasan not to kill Mark Stroman! Besides, Patel's and Hasan's families HAVE asked to stop the execution of Stroman too!
http://www.wrex.com/story/15114462/texas-inmate-s…
Also, you are like those who believe in the "he said, she said" nonsense when you claim that Mark "is a lying monster who lied about his sister being killed when SHE DOESN'T EXIST, never accepts responsibility for the killings, and deserves to fry in hell so he'll never kill again and that justice will be served for the families of his victims!" In truth, you are a heartless, racist, xenophobic, lying, death penalty-supporting hypocrite who never cares about human rights and consular rights, and who only support victims' families who "want death for their killers" while shunning death row inmates and their families! If you don't want to read the link I sent to you and STILL want to spew hatred, insults, and garbage about Mark, Rais, the families of Patel and Hasan and AIUSA, then I don't care, because I'm not listening to you and I'm not visiting this blog anymore! Spread your online mob mentality somewhere else, NOT here in these "death penalty blogs", because I'm done with you! Good day! 👿
Lay off of it, Brian No-Last-Name! YOU are the reason for the online mob mentality of those who want "illegal immigrant monsters" dead in spite of denied consular access, and you NEVER respect Bhuiyan's statements about acting on behalf of the families of Vasudev Patel and Waqar Hasan not to kill Mark Stroman! Besides, Patel's and Hasan's families HAVE asked to stop the execution of Stroman too!
http://www.wrex.com/story/15114462/texas-inmate-s…
Also, you are like those who believe in the "he said, she said" nonsense when you claim that Mark "is a lying monster who lied about his sister being killed when SHE DOESN'T EXIST, never accepts responsibility for the killings, and deserves to fry in hell so he'll never kill again and that justice will be served for the families of his victims!" In truth, you are a heartless, racist, xenophobic, lying, death penalty-supporting hypocrite who never cares about human rights and consular rights, and who only support victims' families who "want death for their killers" while shunning death row inmates and their families! If you don't want to read the link I sent to you and STILL want to spew hatred, insults, and garbage about Mark, Rais, the families of Patel and Hasan and AIUSA, then I don't care, because I'm not listening to you and I'm not visiting this blog anymore! Spread your online mob mentality somewhere else, NOT here in these "death penalty blogs", because I'm done with you! Good day! 👿
Lay off of it, Brian No-Last-Name! YOU are the reason for the online mob mentality of those who want "illegal immigrant monsters" dead in spite of denied consular access, and you NEVER respect Bhuiyan's statements about acting on behalf of the families of Vasudev Patel and Waqar Hasan not to kill Mark Stroman! Besides, Patel's and Hasan's families HAVE asked to stop the execution of Stroman too!
http://www.wrex.com/story/15114462/texas-inmate-s…
Also, you are like those who believe in the "he said, she said" nonsense when you claim that Mark "is a lying monster who lied about his sister being killed when SHE DOESN'T EXIST, never accepts responsibility for the killings, and deserves to fry in hell so he'll never kill again and that justice will be served for the families of his victims!" In truth, you are a heartless, racist, xenophobic, lying, death penalty-supporting hypocrite who never cares about human rights and consular rights, and who only support victims' families who "want death for their killers" while shunning death row inmates and their families! If you don't want to read the link I sent to you and STILL want to spew hatred, insults, and garbage about Mark, Rais, the families of Patel and Hasan and AIUSA, then I don't care, because I'm not listening to you and I'm not visiting this blog anymore! Spread your online mob mentality somewhere else, NOT here in these "death penalty blogs", because I'm done with you! Good day! 👿
Also, you never care about Andrew Grant DeYoung, who is about to be killed by Georgia on the same day as Mark, as you STILL believe that Andrew, like Mark, "deserves to fry in hell for killing his family so that justice will be served" and that the death penalty is "100% deterrant, guaranteed"! Brian No-Last-Name, you never care about human rights at all! If they both get killed by Georgia and Texas and you spew hateful insults against them while celebrating their executions, then you are NOT TRULY CHRISTIAN at all!
Let’s ask the other two victims:
49 year old Vasudev Patel. Naturalized U.S. Citizen from India. He moved to the United States in 1983. Living the American dream. He was working at a gas-station in my hometown of Mesquite, Texas.
Or… 46 year old Waqar Hasan – a Pakisani Immigrant that moved to Dallas, Texas in 2001. He operated his own convenient store.
Let’s ask them… Oh wait, we can’t. They are both dead – brutally shot and murdered by an admitted member of the White Supremacist group – Aryan Brotherhood. A man who created a make believe sister that died at the world trade center – perhaps in order to appeal to your bleeding heart? A man who made obscene gestures to his victim’s family in court. A man that enjoys his cult following and being worshipped by white supremacists. A man who proclaimed after 9-11 that the Government wasn’t doing it’s job – he was going to do it for them.
You never tell the whole story.
Lay off of it, Brian No-Last-Name! YOU are the reason for the online mob mentality of those who want “illegal immigrant monsters” dead in spite of denied consular access, and you NEVER respect Bhuiyan’s statements about acting on behalf of the families of Vasudev Patel and Waqar Hasan not to kill Mark Stroman! Besides, Patel’s and Hasan’s families HAVE asked to stop the execution of Stroman too!
http://www.wrex.com/story/15114462/texas-inmate-set-to-die-for-post-911-killings
Also, you are like those who believe in the “he said, she said” nonsense when you claim that Mark “is a lying monster who lied about his sister being killed when SHE DOESN’T EXIST, never accepts responsibility for the killings, and deserves to fry in hell so he’ll never kill again and that justice will be served for the families of his victims!” In truth, you are a heartless, racist, xenophobic, lying, death penalty-supporting hypocrite who never cares about human rights and consular rights, and who only support victims’ families who “want death for their killers” while shunning death row inmates and their families! If you don’t want to read the link I sent to you and STILL want to spew hatred, insults, and garbage about Mark, Rais, the families of Patel and Hasan and AIUSA, then I don’t care, because I’m not listening to you and I’m not visiting this blog anymore! Spread your online mob mentality somewhere else, NOT here in these “death penalty blogs”, because I’m done with you! Good day! 👿
Also, you never care about Andrew Grant DeYoung, who is about to be killed by Georgia on the same day as Mark, as you STILL believe that Andrew, like Mark, “deserves to fry in hell for killing his family so that justice will be served” and that the death penalty is “100% deterrant, guaranteed”! Brian No-Last-Name, you never care about human rights at all! If they both get killed by Georgia and Texas and you spew hateful insults against them while celebrating their executions, then you are NOT TRULY CHRISTIAN at all!
Take a deap breath Debbie and try to debate like an adult. You are putting quotes around words I never spoke and seem to only be capable of name-calling.
The family members of the deceased don't get to choose the punishment. You should be glad about that – as it works in favor of the criminal more times than not.
"He said – She said?" On his own website and blog he created and controlled he wrote to his "fans" claiming to have a sister that died at the World Trade Center.
When you say "Racist, Xenophobe, Lying, Doesn't Care about Human Rights" etc… you are speaking about the soon to be dead Mark Stroman, not me.
I'm bi-racial and my wife is from Guatemala. Real nice try.
I agree with Brian.
"Will Texas ignore victim's rights?"
Your headline is a false premise.
FYI – Mark Stroman dead at 8:53 PM. Texas didn't violate "victim's rights" The Governor of Texas followed the law – respected the court system – and carried out a legal execution – handed down by judge, jury and numerous appellate courts.
Take a deap breath Debbie and try to debate like an adult. You are putting quotes around words I never spoke and seem to only be capable of name-calling.
The family members of the deceased don’t get to choose the punishment. You should be glad about that – as it works in favor of the criminal more times than not.
“He said – She said?” On his own website and blog he created and controlled he wrote to his “fans” claiming to have a sister that died at the World Trade Center.
When you say “Racist, Xenophobe, Lying, Doesn’t Care about Human Rights” etc… you are speaking about the soon to be dead Mark Stroman, not me.
I’m bi-racial and my wife is from Guatemala. Real nice try.
& i with Debbie Kearns.
For she's right … Stroman is the very product of the Texas culture & mentality that now rushes to kill him.
Dear Brian, you are ACCURATE about Stroman's White Supremacy thing.
But don't you see, it's TEXAS that has fostered, since its first frontier days, the frontier METAPHYSICS of HATING THE INDIAN that Herman Melville spoke of, which morphed into hating the darkskinned Other, the Alien, all Aliens, & killing these Aliens off as the Texan Way of "Walking the Walk".
Actually, Ms Kearns is talking EXACTLY ABOUT this Lariat & Lynchmob
"just-us" of cowboy Texas : that Texas is the PROCESS of which Stroman is the PRODUCT.
He's MADE IN TEXAS, literally.
Why scapegoat him for what Texas made him into ??
Ms Kearns perhaps also means here, i feel, the Muslim hating mentality which American politicians use to get themselves elected.
The Tea Party brews this hatred of Muslims as Others.
Texas ( & the South in general ) is a prime breeding ground of this hatred of Muslims.
It's not justice if the very fatcats who profit from this Islamophobia now put someone who's indoctrinated in precisely their beliefs to death because he's poorer than they are & smaller prey.
Bhuiyan, a Muslim, shows the Other Way.
Let him meet Stroman.
Let there be this meeting where the victims embrace the killer.
A true correction may start here.
A washing away of the brutal racism inherent in Texan society.
It can serve as a precedent.
We rarely see such a thing in these dark days of hate.
Dear Ms Kearns, Brian, Amanda …
Here's an example for us.
In the 1990s, the Hutu tribe of Rwanda massacred a million people of the rival Tutsi tribe.
Today the two tribes live in peace.
How ?
Because they both have entered a porocess of mutual reconciliation together.
They meet periodically.
Thry remember their history of mutual hate.
The Hutus get up & say, "I killed so & so from your family…"
They detail ALL their crimes.
They are not punished. Or imprisoned. Or executed.
Instead, the Tutsi persons whose families they butchered get up & embrace them.
"I forgive you," they say.
& continue to live in harmony.
In one country.
But Texas won't be that country.
For they "follow the law" there.
The "law" over harmony.
& reconciliation.
I agree with Brian.
“Will Texas ignore victim’s rights?”
Your headline is a false premise.
FYI – Mark Stroman dead at 8:53 PM. Texas didn’t violate “victim’s rights” The Governor of Texas followed the law – respected the court system – and carried out a legal execution – handed down by judge, jury and numerous appellate courts.
& i with Debbie Kearns.
For she’s right … Stroman is the very product of the Texas culture & mentality that now rushes to kill him.
Dear Brian, you are ACCURATE about Stroman’s White Supremacy thing.
But don’t you see, it’s TEXAS that has fostered, since its first frontier days, the frontier METAPHYSICS of HATING THE INDIAN that Herman Melville spoke of, which morphed into hating the darkskinned Other, the Alien, all Aliens, & killing these Aliens off as the Texan Way of “Walking the Walk”.
Actually, Ms Kearns is talking EXACTLY ABOUT this Lariat & Lynchmob
“just-us” of cowboy Texas : that Texas is the PROCESS of which Stroman is the PRODUCT.
He’s MADE IN TEXAS, literally.
Why scapegoat him for what Texas made him into ??
Ms Kearns perhaps also means here, i feel, the Muslim hating mentality which American politicians use to get themselves elected.
The Tea Party brews this hatred of Muslims as Others.
Texas ( & the South in general ) is a prime breeding ground of this hatred of Muslims.
It’s not justice if the very fatcats who profit from this Islamophobia now put someone who’s indoctrinated in precisely their beliefs to death because he’s poorer than they are & smaller prey.
Bhuiyan, a Muslim, shows the Other Way.
Let him meet Stroman.
Let there be this meeting where the victims embrace the killer.
A true correction may start here.
A washing away of the brutal racism inherent in Texan society.
It can serve as a precedent.
We rarely see such a thing in these dark days of hate.
Dear Ms Kearns, Brian, Amanda …
Here’s an example for us.
In the 1990s, the Hutu tribe of Rwanda massacred a million people of the rival Tutsi tribe.
Today the two tribes live in peace.
How ?
Because they both have entered a porocess of mutual reconciliation together.
They meet periodically.
Thry remember their history of mutual hate.
The Hutus get up & say, “I killed so & so from your family…”
They detail ALL their crimes.
They are not punished. Or imprisoned. Or executed.
Instead, the Tutsi persons whose families they butchered get up & embrace them.
“I forgive you,” they say.
& continue to live in harmony.
In one country.
But Texas won’t be that country.
For they “follow the law” there.
The “law” over harmony.
& reconciliation.
No Mr. A. Savage – the State of Texas is not responsible for the actions of Mr. Stroman. Your attempts to paint the whole State and Nation based on this bigots actions are pathetic.
Enjoy your day – and your continued U.S.A. and Texas bashing.
No Mr. A. Savage – the State of Texas is not responsible for the actions of Mr. Stroman. Your attempts to paint the whole State and Nation based on this bigots actions are pathetic.
Enjoy your day – and your continued U.S.A. and Texas bashing.
Well, Brian No-Last-Name, Amanda and Rachel ALL claim that "justice is served for victims' families because of the execution of this monster, who will never kill again because he's frying in hell!" These are ALL LIES, and they all make me sick! Justice is NEVER served, and somewhere, Rais Bhuiyan and the families of Patel and Hasan are all crying because their rights are TOTALLY IGNORED BY THE STATE OF TEXAS! Besides, Mark said that he wasn't the monster that the media claimed him to be, and yet Texas killed him anyway, thanks to the online mob mentality of those who wanted him dead, including brian, Amanda and Rachel! I hope these three death penalty supporters, along with Texas, will one day have to answer to God for this atrocious act of injustice. At least Mark made his peace with God before he was killed. May he, his sister, Patel and Hasan all rest in the peace and justice that was totally denied for them on earth. 😥
Ms. Kearns-
Welcome back – In an early post you said "I’m not listening to you and I’m not visiting this blog anymore!"
I don't see anyone else using the words monster, burn in hell etc…
And once again I must correct you – I have no authority or impact whatsoever concerning the execution of the White Supremacist murderer in Texas. I doubt "Amanda" or "Rachel" or anyone you label an online angry mob can claim any credit for the execution of a man who killed "Muslim looking" people.
I hope he did make peace with God.
He has himself to blame for the peace that was denied him on earth.
Well, Brian No-Last-Name, Amanda and Rachel ALL claim that “justice is served for victims’ families because of the execution of this monster, who will never kill again because he’s frying in hell!” These are ALL LIES, and they all make me sick! Justice is NEVER served, and somewhere, Rais Bhuiyan and the families of Patel and Hasan are all crying because their rights are TOTALLY IGNORED BY THE STATE OF TEXAS! Besides, Mark said that he wasn’t the monster that the media claimed him to be, and yet Texas killed him anyway, thanks to the online mob mentality of those who wanted him dead, including brian, Amanda and Rachel! I hope these three death penalty supporters, along with Texas, will one day have to answer to God for this atrocious act of injustice. At least Mark made his peace with God before he was killed. May he, his sister, Patel and Hasan all rest in the peace and justice that was totally denied for them on earth. 😥
Ms. Kearns-
Welcome back – In an early post you said “I’m not listening to you and I’m not visiting this blog anymore!”
I don’t see anyone else using the words monster, burn in hell etc…
And once again I must correct you – I have no authority or impact whatsoever concerning the execution of the White Supremacist murderer in Texas. I doubt “Amanda” or “Rachel” or anyone you label an online angry mob can claim any credit for the execution of a man who killed “Muslim looking” people.
I hope he did make peace with God.
He has himself to blame for the peace that was denied him on earth.
Dear Debbie Kearns,
So society casts off Stroman's corpse without giving it the shroud of explanation , or the interment of understanding.
In the end it denies him burial in his own environment.
As if he'd lived all his life in a Void.
Dear Debbie Kearns,
Sometimes my words sound strange, i know.
So i say again :
When we see a person, we try to understand why he does what he does.
& then we study his environment.
For that is what made him.
This simple truth Brian denies when he says of Stroman, "He has himself to blame".
No one lives alone by "himself".
He can only be understood in relation to his environment.
Continue your work, please, & speak to us all, & for us.
We listen.
Dear Debbie Kearns,
So society casts off Stroman’s corpse without giving it the shroud of explanation , or the interment of understanding.
In the end it denies him burial in his own environment.
As if he’d lived all his life in a Void.
Dear Debbie Kearns,
Sometimes my words sound strange, i know.
So i say again :
When we see a person, we try to understand why he does what he does.
& then we study his environment.
For that is what made him.
This simple truth Brian denies when he says of Stroman, “He has himself to blame”.
No one lives alone by “himself”.
He can only be understood in relation to his environment.
Continue your work, please, & speak to us all, & for us.
We listen.
Thanks, a. savage. I close off with a song for Mark and for all other death row inmates, even those who are believed to be innocent, and for victims' families as well. The song is called, "They Won't Go When I Go" by Stevie Wonder.
No more lying friends
Wanting tragic ends.
Though they do pretend,
They won't go when I go.
All those bleeding hearts
With sorrows to impart
Were right here from the start,
And they won't go when I go.
And I'll go where I've longed
To go for so long,
Away from tears.
Gone from painful cries,
Away from saddened eyes,
Along with him I'll hide,
And they won't go when I go.
Big men feeling small,
Weak ones standing tall;
I will watch them fall,
'Cause they won't go when I go.
And I'll go where I've longed
To go for so long,
Away from tears.
Unclean minds mislead the pure.
The innocent will leave for sure;
For them there is a resting place.
People sinning just for fun,
They will never see the sun,
For they can never show their faces.
There ain't no room for the hopeless sinner
Who will take more than he will give,
He will give,
He will give.
He ain't hardly gonna give.
The greed of man will be
Far away from me,
And my soul will be free.
They won't go when I go.
Since my soul conceived
All that I believe,
The kingdom I will see,
'Cause they won't go when I go.
And I'll go where I'll go.
No one can keep me from
My destiny.
They won't go when I go.
Thanks, a. savage. I close off with a song for Mark and for all other death row inmates, even those who are believed to be innocent, and for victims’ families as well. The song is called, “They Won’t Go When I Go” by Stevie Wonder.
No more lying friends
Wanting tragic ends.
Though they do pretend,
They won’t go when I go.
All those bleeding hearts
With sorrows to impart
Were right here from the start,
And they won’t go when I go.
And I’ll go where I’ve longed
To go for so long,
Away from tears.
Gone from painful cries,
Away from saddened eyes,
Along with him I’ll hide,
And they won’t go when I go.
Big men feeling small,
Weak ones standing tall;
I will watch them fall,
‘Cause they won’t go when I go.
And I’ll go where I’ve longed
To go for so long,
Away from tears.
Unclean minds mislead the pure.
The innocent will leave for sure;
For them there is a resting place.
People sinning just for fun,
They will never see the sun,
For they can never show their faces.
There ain’t no room for the hopeless sinner
Who will take more than he will give,
He will give,
He will give.
He ain’t hardly gonna give.
The greed of man will be
Far away from me,
And my soul will be free.
They won’t go when I go.
Since my soul conceived
All that I believe,
The kingdom I will see,
‘Cause they won’t go when I go.
And I’ll go where I’ll go.
No one can keep me from
My destiny.
They won’t go when I go.
Go Brian,
I agree with you,thank goodness the other people who disagree had no say in this case.
Murderers deserve to be murdered as justice for their actions. I couldn't care less about the murderer's family . I care about the families of the victims. The more vicious killer animals who are put to death the safer we all are from them.
Go Brian,
I agree with you,thank goodness the other people who disagree had no say in this case.
Murderers deserve to be murdered as justice for their actions. I couldn’t care less about the murderer’s family . I care about the families of the victims. The more vicious killer animals who are put to death the safer we all are from them.
Mr. Savage. Although killings to the extent of the Rwandan genocide have ceased, and there may very well be a peaceful co-existance between some members the two factions, don't mistake that for true peace. The Hutu and the Tutsi still have quite a bit of bad blood. And both have been implicated in murders, rapes and other crimes in recent years.
Himmler himself met with a prominent member of the Jewish community during the Holocaust to discuss the viability of peace between the Jews and the Nazis. It may sound nice at first, but makes very little difference to those who suffer at the hands of these factions.
I staunchly oppose the death penalty in all cases. Even when the person who is in danger of being executed is a monster and may well "deserve to die". I have never lost a family member to a murderer, but I think I can safely say this view would not change should this happen to me. I believe that a large reason why people with victims of a murderer want the death penalty is sub-conscious; they wish to smash and beat and kill this individual themselves for the grief and anguish that he/she has brought upon them. And in many cases, an execution by the state does not satisfy this primal desire, nor does it alleviate any suffering.
Furthermore, when the victims rise up and state that they do not wish for a death penalty, yet the state does not listen and executes the prisoner anyway, it is indeed a violation of their rights as victims, and does not reward forgiveness and compassion in the manner that is generally taught in this society. The Taliban oblige in stopping an execution when the victims family wishes it, why can't America?
Korman:
How very insensitive you are. Oftentimes, a murderers family is a normal law-abiding family the same as anyone elses. The fact that one of their relatives is a monster means they do not suffer in the same way? They may suffer even more, since not only do they have to deal with the fact that their loved one is dead, they also have to come to terms with the hideous monster their loved one really was.
Think about it.
Mr. Savage. Although killings to the extent of the Rwandan genocide have ceased, and there may very well be a peaceful co-existance between some members the two factions, don’t mistake that for true peace. The Hutu and the Tutsi still have quite a bit of bad blood. And both have been implicated in murders, rapes and other crimes in recent years.
Himmler himself met with a prominent member of the Jewish community during the Holocaust to discuss the viability of peace between the Jews and the Nazis. It may sound nice at first, but makes very little difference to those who suffer at the hands of these factions.
I staunchly oppose the death penalty in all cases. Even when the person who is in danger of being executed is a monster and may well “deserve to die”. I have never lost a family member to a murderer, but I think I can safely say this view would not change should this happen to me. I believe that a large reason why people with victims of a murderer want the death penalty is sub-conscious; they wish to smash and beat and kill this individual themselves for the grief and anguish that he/she has brought upon them. And in many cases, an execution by the state does not satisfy this primal desire, nor does it alleviate any suffering.
Furthermore, when the victims rise up and state that they do not wish for a death penalty, yet the state does not listen and executes the prisoner anyway, it is indeed a violation of their rights as victims, and does not reward forgiveness and compassion in the manner that is generally taught in this society. The Taliban oblige in stopping an execution when the victims family wishes it, why can’t America?
Korman:
How very insensitive you are. Oftentimes, a murderers family is a normal law-abiding family the same as anyone elses. The fact that one of their relatives is a monster means they do not suffer in the same way? They may suffer even more, since not only do they have to deal with the fact that their loved one is dead, they also have to come to terms with the hideous monster their loved one really was.
Think about it.
Dear Debbie,
i loved that song. Never heard before. Am cut off from much !!
i love it when he says, I will go away to a far better place …. a place where's only love… but you who mislead the pure, you won't go where i go.
The song speaks of love, but also of love's loneliness, don't you feel Debbie ??
& out of its loneliness it draws a clear, strong line between its passion & its distance from those who manipulate the innocent.
Beautiful, Debbie. Brings the tears to these eyes as i talk to you.
Whenever you feel, share more.
Dear Emac……
Excellent words from you !!
i know …. history didn't come to a stop in Rwanda. i know crimes still happen there … of course !
The point here is the process. Even if undertaken individually. That they think this is needed to move beyond, & they do it before all society.
The point here is the Teaching.
Those who take these hard steps are not walking in Himmler's.
Your final point is splendid … That the Taliban uses the indigenous peoples' law in Pakistan to forgive a transgressor if the victim's family wishes to forgive … then why can't America ?
In fact America, as you know, used this native law recently when it was to its own advantage, when Pakistan arrested the CIA contractor Raymond Davis for coldblooded unprovoked double murders in public.
Under America's unrelenting pressure, Pakistan in turn put pressure on the victims' families to "forgive" Davis in exchange for US citizenships for all the family members. Davis was freed instantly.
One law for a CIA double murderer who works for the system.
Another law for double murderer Stroman because people like him are valueless ….expendable nobodies.
The saddest thing …. the forgiveness in Stroman's case was completely genuine, voluntary, unpressured, & asked for nothing in return.
A.Savage:
I like your point about the teaching. The fact that there are individuals who will publicly show forgiveness does show hope for the future, and should not be downplayed.
This Davis case I am unfortunately not familiar with. But from your post it seems a grave injustice was done. I believe the victims should have it within their rights to forbid an execution, but I don't think the murderer should get away with it! It also seems to be quite the double standard! Forcing a victims family to forgive when do not wish it, then not heeding the wishes of victims at home.
And yes, the forgiveness in Bhuiyans' case was genuine and heart-warming. "We have to break this cycle of hate and violence". He is taking a very good first step which is truly admirable. I am curious, however, what the reactions are of the other families. Were they ready to forgive? And if they were not, and if Bhuiyans' wishes were granted, is this not a violation of their rights?
Despite Brian's denial, Debbie Kearns's right, death penalty supporters do talk of the condemned as "monsters" who get what they deserve.
See Korman's "the animals on death row" comment in later blog, or the comment "what do we care if they suffer pain when they die?"
How do we EXPLAIN Stroman ?
How do we understand him, his actions, his motives ?
Brian denies my diagnosis of his crimes.
But denial is not diagnosis.
My diagnosis remains : That an epidemic of Islamophobia is sweeping America.
In DC.
In the states.
In movies.
On TV.
In election rallies.
In blogs.
In the Tea Party.
In Fox News.
In Congress.
In the speeches of politicians.
Like Peter King.
In the discussions of a mosque at Ground Zero.
In the Quran burning which grabs media headlines.
In the continuous racial profiling at airports.
In the endless surveilling & suspicion of the Muslim community.
In the perception of Muslims as terrorists.
In the talk of US soldiers about Muslims as "ragheads, "sand niggers", "camel jockies","Hajis"….
In the talk of a world Armageddon against Islam.
In the talk of a "Clash of Civilizations".
Stroman wasn't quarantined from this epidemic of hatred of Muslims.
He's not an exception in this America.
He's the rule.
& he was hastily disposed of along with the virus he caught from America.
Dear Debbie,
i loved that song. Never heard before. Am cut off from much !!
i love it when he says, I will go away to a far better place …. a place where’s only love… but you who mislead the pure, you won’t go where i go.
The song speaks of love, but also of love’s loneliness, don’t you feel Debbie ??
& out of its loneliness it draws a clear, strong line between its passion & its distance from those who manipulate the innocent.
Beautiful, Debbie. Brings the tears to these eyes as i talk to you.
Whenever you feel, share more.
A curious book to read is "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. An autobio of a Somali woman who grew up surrounded by extremism.
The Quran, (although I don't pretend to know much about it) certainly does say: "slay the unbelievers wherever you may find them". This seems to be a popular mindset among many in Islamic regions of the world. This book details and documents indoctrination of children into a society which approves of genital mutilation in females, the rape and murder of innocent people, and condones the violent deaths of those who do not believe.
While Anti-Islamic bigotry seems to be fairly prevalent in the United States, is it completely wrong to be distrusttful of a religion which openly calls for your death?
In this book, Ali says that she feels peace can never exist between our cultures for this very reason, and I'm inclined to agree. I am not a bigot in any way shape or form, and I abhor violations of any human right, however I do believe we must open our eyes to the facts.
Islam? Anti-Islam? We're all wrong. And this hatred continues as each side avenges the deaths of their brothers and sisters.
Dear Emac……
Excellent words from you !!
i know …. history didn’t come to a stop in Rwanda. i know crimes still happen there … of course !
The point here is the process. Even if undertaken individually. That they think this is needed to move beyond, & they do it before all society.
The point here is the Teaching.
Those who take these hard steps are not walking in Himmler’s.
Your final point is splendid … That the Taliban uses the indigenous peoples’ law in Pakistan to forgive a transgressor if the victim’s family wishes to forgive … then why can’t America ?
In fact America, as you know, used this native law recently when it was to its own advantage, when Pakistan arrested the CIA contractor Raymond Davis for coldblooded unprovoked double murders in public.
Under America’s unrelenting pressure, Pakistan in turn put pressure on the victims’ families to “forgive” Davis in exchange for US citizenships for all the family members. Davis was freed instantly.
One law for a CIA double murderer who works for the system.
Another law for double murderer Stroman because people like him are valueless ….expendable nobodies.
The saddest thing …. the forgiveness in Stroman’s case was completely genuine, voluntary, unpressured, & asked for nothing in return.
A.Savage:
I like your point about the teaching. The fact that there are individuals who will publicly show forgiveness does show hope for the future, and should not be downplayed.
This Davis case I am unfortunately not familiar with. But from your post it seems a grave injustice was done. I believe the victims should have it within their rights to forbid an execution, but I don’t think the murderer should get away with it! It also seems to be quite the double standard! Forcing a victims family to forgive when do not wish it, then not heeding the wishes of victims at home.
And yes, the forgiveness in Bhuiyans’ case was genuine and heart-warming. “We have to break this cycle of hate and violence”. He is taking a very good first step which is truly admirable. I am curious, however, what the reactions are of the other families. Were they ready to forgive? And if they were not, and if Bhuiyans’ wishes were granted, is this not a violation of their rights?
Despite Brian’s denial, Debbie Kearns’s right, death penalty supporters do talk of the condemned as “monsters” who get what they deserve.
See Korman’s “the animals on death row” comment in later blog, or the comment “what do we care if they suffer pain when they die?”
How do we EXPLAIN Stroman ?
How do we understand him, his actions, his motives ?
Brian denies my diagnosis of his crimes.
But denial is not diagnosis.
My diagnosis remains : That an epidemic of Islamophobia is sweeping America.
In DC.
In the states.
In movies.
On TV.
In election rallies.
In blogs.
In the Tea Party.
In Fox News.
In Congress.
In the speeches of politicians.
Like Peter King.
In the discussions of a mosque at Ground Zero.
In the Quran burning which grabs media headlines.
In the continuous racial profiling at airports.
In the endless surveilling & suspicion of the Muslim community.
In the perception of Muslims as terrorists.
In the talk of US soldiers about Muslims as “ragheads, “sand niggers”, “camel jockies”,”Hajis”….
In the talk of a world Armageddon against Islam.
In the talk of a “Clash of Civilizations”.
Stroman wasn’t quarantined from this epidemic of hatred of Muslims.
He’s not an exception in this America.
He’s the rule.
& he was hastily disposed of along with the virus he caught from America.
A curious book to read is “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. An autobio of a Somali woman who grew up surrounded by extremism.
The Quran, (although I don’t pretend to know much about it) certainly does say: “slay the unbelievers wherever you may find them”. This seems to be a popular mindset among many in Islamic regions of the world. This book details and documents indoctrination of children into a society which approves of genital mutilation in females, the rape and murder of innocent people, and condones the violent deaths of those who do not believe.
While Anti-Islamic bigotry seems to be fairly prevalent in the United States, is it completely wrong to be distrusttful of a religion which openly calls for your death?
In this book, Ali says that she feels peace can never exist between our cultures for this very reason, and I’m inclined to agree. I am not a bigot in any way shape or form, and I abhor violations of any human right, however I do believe we must open our eyes to the facts.
Islam? Anti-Islam? We’re all wrong. And this hatred continues as each side avenges the deaths of their brothers and sisters.
A. Savage-
You want to blame society and the State of Texas? The Tea Party? Fox News? Man you are a riot.
The population of Texas is 25,100,000 – and extraordinarily diverse. Even more diverse when you count the legal and illegal residents. 24,499,999 of the legal residents of Texas didn't go out and kill muslim looking people right after 9-11 – yet you claim an "epidemic". This one bigot did.
99.999974 % of the population of Texas manages to avoid committing a crime that lands them on death row – yet they are to blame for the 0.000016% that do?
It is always SOMEONE ELSE'S fault huh? Certainly not the murderer. He is a "victim" of the State of Texas. Individual responsibility doesn't exist in your mind.
Wow…
The Ground Zero Mosque controversy, The Tea Party, The Nut Preacher who wanted to burn the Quran, Peter King's Muslim Radicalization hearings etc… None of them even exhisted when the Bigot shot 3 and killed 2 muslim looking people. US Soldiers were not engaged in war or calling anyone deragotory names when the White Supremacist went on his hunt for Muslims. Nor is that kind of talk tolerated today.
So question for you A. SAVAGE aka – Mr. Genious that has Texas and the U.S. so figured out. How can you pin blame on all those things that didn't exist?
A. Savage-
You want to blame society and the State of Texas? The Tea Party? Fox News? Man you are a riot.
The population of Texas is 25,100,000 – and extraordinarily diverse. Even more diverse when you count the legal and illegal residents. 24,499,999 of the legal residents of Texas didn’t go out and kill muslim looking people right after 9-11 – yet you claim an “epidemic”. This one bigot did.
99.999974 % of the population of Texas manages to avoid committing a crime that lands them on death row – yet they are to blame for the 0.000016% that do?
It is always SOMEONE ELSE’S fault huh? Certainly not the murderer. He is a “victim” of the State of Texas. Individual responsibility doesn’t exist in your mind.
Wow…
The Ground Zero Mosque controversy, The Tea Party, The Nut Preacher who wanted to burn the Quran, Peter King’s Muslim Radicalization hearings etc… None of them even exhisted when the Bigot shot 3 and killed 2 muslim looking people. US Soldiers were not engaged in war or calling anyone deragotory names when the White Supremacist went on his hunt for Muslims. Nor is that kind of talk tolerated today.
So question for you A. SAVAGE aka – Mr. Genious that has Texas and the U.S. so figured out. How can you pin blame on all those things that didn’t exist?